The Abortion Thread

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
641

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, dude’s goal posts move more than the tide comes in. [/quote]

Thing is, raj has been screaming about his “studies” for pages and pages now, and to date he has presented exactly ONE ABSTRACT from a study that we cannot access without paying from a website called Contraception Journal.

So please excuse me if I, personally, don’t start jumping up and down pissing down my leg with excitement over his “findings.”[/quote]

Why don’t you start by acknowledging everything else that you do have access to? Let see:

Why no medical or psychological organization recognizes post-abortion syndrome

How the APA has stated there is no causal link between mental health issues and abortions. There was also a British based institution I mentioned a couple pages back with the same conclusion, the name escapes me.

Why the Surgeon general under Reagan administration refused to acknowledge abortion as dangerous to a woman’s health even when under pressure to do so.

How John Hopkins university analyzed 21 studies they deemed being high quality (and encompassing 150,000 women) and found no link to depression. I mean seriously, if I managed to post all 21 studies, would you read through them all?

Start with that, I’ll try and see if I can track down one of my friends still in Uni and has access. [/quote]

So all these women feel NOTHING for the life they just snubbed out, that was growing inside of them.

Is that your assertion?

That they harbor no guilt for the act of killing their child? [/quote]

If they do not consider a growing embryo equal to a child, why would they?

642

[quote]maverick88 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, dude’s goal posts move more than the tide comes in. [/quote]

Thing is, raj has been screaming about his “studies” for pages and pages now, and to date he has presented exactly ONE ABSTRACT from a study that we cannot access without paying from a website called Contraception Journal.

So please excuse me if I, personally, don’t start jumping up and down pissing down my leg with excitement over his “findings.”[/quote]

Why don’t you start by acknowledging everything else that you do have access to? Let see:

Why no medical or psychological organization recognizes post-abortion syndrome

How the APA has stated there is no causal link between mental health issues and abortions. There was also a British based institution I mentioned a couple pages back with the same conclusion, the name escapes me.

Why the Surgeon general under Reagan administration refused to acknowledge abortion as dangerous to a woman’s health even when under pressure to do so.

How John Hopkins university analyzed 21 studies they deemed being high quality (and encompassing 150,000 women) and found no link to depression. I mean seriously, if I managed to post all 21 studies, would you read through them all?

Start with that, I’ll try and see if I can track down one of my friends still in Uni and has access. [/quote]

So all these women feel NOTHING for the life they just snubbed out, that was growing inside of them.

Is that your assertion?

That they harbor no guilt for the act of killing their child? [/quote]

If they do not consider a growing embryo equal to a child, why would they?
[/quote]

Like I said, all these women feel NOTHING, NOTHING at all, for the life they just snubbed out, that was growing inside of them.

Raj appears to believe this is true. That we are cold, calculating machines with utilitarian operating systems.

At the same time, he says that the life of the child, well, “fetus,” he calls it, is somehow valuable.

Yet, this same, valuable, unique life, child of his mother who will decide his death, a mother who has deemed him, essentially, too much trouble to keep, this life now becomes the equivalent of having a wisdom tooth extracted.

I’m not talking about studies right now. I’m trying to figure out what kind of thought process leads one to believe that both of these scenarios can simultaneously exist.

Again, for clarity:

Statement 1: There is a unique human life growing inside of the womb from the moment of conception that, if we stay out of the way, contains all of the potential to become a fully grown, walking, talking, pro-abortion or pro-life supporting member of society, just like you and I were allowed to become by our mothers.

Statement 2: Can’t be bothered with having this kid (who, if I stay out of the way, contains all of the potential to become a fully grown, walking, talking, pro-abortion or pro-life supporting member of society, just like you and I were allowed to become by our mothers). Pop its head like a polyp and suck out the detritus. I’ll never have a second thought about it. Send me a survey, I’ll prove it.

edit: typos

643

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, dude’s goal posts move more than the tide comes in. [/quote]

Thing is, raj has been screaming about his “studies” for pages and pages now, and to date he has presented exactly ONE ABSTRACT from a study that we cannot access without paying from a website called Contraception Journal.

So please excuse me if I, personally, don’t start jumping up and down pissing down my leg with excitement over his “findings.”[/quote]

Why don’t you start by acknowledging everything else that you do have access to? Let see:

Why no medical or psychological organization recognizes post-abortion syndrome

How the APA has stated there is no causal link between mental health issues and abortions. There was also a British based institution I mentioned a couple pages back with the same conclusion, the name escapes me.

Why the Surgeon general under Reagan administration refused to acknowledge abortion as dangerous to a woman’s health even when under pressure to do so.

How John Hopkins university analyzed 21 studies they deemed being high quality (and encompassing 150,000 women) and found no link to depression. I mean seriously, if I managed to post all 21 studies, would you read through them all?

Start with that, I’ll try and see if I can track down one of my friends still in Uni and has access. [/quote]

None of this is my concern, as I have stated before and stated quite clearly on this very page. Note the italicized:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

…why this ceaseless prying into in issue that finally doesn’t matter anyway because the lives of innocent human beings are being snuffed out by the millions? [/quote]

My primary disagreement with the entire crux of this undying zombie of a sidetrack you insist upon reanimating over and over was that you were waving your studies (well, your one inaccessible abstract) around as if it proved some kind of greater point. I have no idea what that point was or how it applies to this discussion, but I took umbrage with the fact that you discount the very REAL suffering of women which DOES, in fact, occur, in the thousands upon thousands, every single year. You further discounted even the suffering of these women as if it were just some culturally induced guilt, not REAL guilt at killing their own child, which, no, is not an appeal to emotion, but is in fact the reality of the situation.

On top of all of this, your point, whatever it is, doesn’t even seem to make sense in light of the fact that you have actually AGREED that the “fetus” is what it indeed is, a new, unique human life, a child growing in the womb of his mother. This is the same child that you once were. If your mother had decided to abort you, well, I’d probably be forced to have this debate with sufiandy, which would really suck, but it would not be some placeholder you. It would be the only you there ever was, is, ever will be.

You can scoff about my anecdotal account all you want, I will tell you that I have more real world experience than you do, and as a 36 year old who has lived a very full life, I can tell you that, in the end, more times than not, real world experience will trump any study out there. As a business owner (a pretty successful one at that!) I can tell you with absolutely no hesitation that I trust experience and instinct over studies and theory any day of the week.

With all that in mind: I have a wife. She is pregnant with our second son, 8 months pregnant now. We’ve been through this twice. Trust me, from the very moment she is aware of his existence, there is NO other thought in her mind, none than that that is her child inside of her.

So you can take your little comment about my not caring about my beliefs being true and shove it somewhere dark and foul. My success and the house, shelter and money I provide my family as well as the services I provide my community depend every single day upon my application of what is REALLY true, and recognizing what is not. You come back and try and say the same thing to me after you have half the life experience I do. Try and see how far you get in life working with nothing but studies and theories. Please, do try.

644

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:<<< I can give you a thousand other women who do regret abortion. >>>[/quote]This was just a ten second exercise before morning prayer which I am late for. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=post+bortion+regret +
I personally know women who once they realized that they had committed the most selfish and heinous form of murder conceivable, took years to heal. Some men too. Of course as I say that requires a breathing conscience and freedom from idolatrous vagina worship. It is EXACTLY as the bible says it should be.

645

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:You may fire at will. [/quote]I give you credit for being honest. Thankfully I didn’t, but had I been made to make that choice, I don’t know that I could have let my wife go. [/quote]I believe you may need to reread my post.
[/quote]

Just did, and I’m not sure what I am not understanding.

646

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
LOL, dude’s goal posts move more than the tide comes in. [/quote]

Thing is, raj has been screaming about his “studies” for pages and pages now, and to date he has presented exactly ONE ABSTRACT from a study that we cannot access without paying from a website called Contraception Journal.

So please excuse me if I, personally, don’t start jumping up and down pissing down my leg with excitement over his “findings.”[/quote]

Well, you are at least consistant in what you are looking for from people who don’t agree with your position.

I was just lol’ing at Mr. Whateversuitsmypointofviewisright is all.

647

I had promised myself that I wouldn’t post in this thread anymore because it is seriously a waste of time, however I figured one last shot at pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pro-life Movement might be in order:

  1. Over 80% of “Pro-Life” self identifiers also identify as Conservative/Republican
  2. The majority of Conservative/republicans (73%) support the death penalty
  3. The GOP moved over $300,000,000 from TANF (welfare programs for poor kids and families) to the Federal Healthy Marriage Initiative (quite a way to show that they care about the kids).
  4. They have been instrumental in cutting $4.5 billion in food stamps, a program that feeds kids (and pregnant women) to the tune of 45 million Americans. Studies show that malnutrition from fetal formation to age two leads to decreased cognitive function FOREVER. The GOP led congress is looking to trim another $134 billion over 10 years (thank you Paul Ryan).
  5. The GOP wants to kick 280,000 children off of school lunch programs, to avoid defense spending cuts and provide tax breaks for the rich. It is part of a larger 10year $33 billion dollar series of cuts that also reduces eliminates benefits for over 1.5 million poor folks. GOP Bob Bishop called the school lunch program “unconsitutional”.
  6. The GOP and its’ candidates are almost universally against Gay Marriage and Gay Adoption, despite the fact that on average roughly 130,000 children are left waiting for adoption each year.
  7. The GOP is against teaching about contraception in sex education classes, they have funded abstinence only programs nationwide, but have attempted to not fund anything that promotes/teaches contraception.
  8. The GOP is in favor of increased defense spending and decreasing spending on education,healthcare,school lunches, housing assistance, student loans, after school education programs etc.

How can a group of people state that they are pro-child when they give up on the child right after it is born? If you are so pro-child that you can’t imagine the world without those 1.6 million aborted fetuses per year, tell me where your compassion actually starts.

In Oklahoma " Medicaid paid for the treatment and delivery costs for more than 70 percent of the 26,100 unintended pregnancies in 2006, the only year for which state-by-state data is available…For the Sooner State, which had the 10th-highest percentage of such births among states that year, the price tag for prenatal and post-partum care for the woman and infant was $55.6 million while the federal government?s share of those costs was $117.6 million. Nationwide, federal and state government costs for treating and delivering unintended pregnancies in 2006 was more than $11 billion."

These costs are just for the pre-natal care and then delivery, passed right on to you, the taxpayer. What about the cost of raising a child in poverty? Well that is simple, the average taxpayer cost of raising a HEALTHY child through 18 years of public assistance is over $300,000 (counting medical, dental, housing, food and other assistance) a child with a disability can cost many times that depending on the severity of the disability.

If 70% of unplanned pregnancies are children that will receive public assistance and if we assume they are all healthy, the cost to the taxpayer will be roughly $336,000,000,000 for each batch of kids added to your tax bills. This doesn’t count the necessary increases in teachers, public employees (social workers, police, DFS, Social Security, Housing authority etc.) It seems you have a choice, abort the unplanned fetus, or open up your wallets, the GOP/RTL faction wants to do neither, there is a word for that…

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/25/470967/gop-school-lunch-cuts/?mobile=nc

http://thecentristword.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/gops-war-on-women-wisconsin-governor-scott-walker-signs-4-anti-woman-bills-in-secret-in-one-day/

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/statistics/adoption.cfm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-03/curbing-female-reproductive-rights-raises-taxpayer-costs.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2266310/posts
http://www.nchcw.org/fup/
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-06-15/features/bs-gl-reimer-teen-pregnancy-20110616_1_teen-pregnancy-teen-mother-health-care
http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/costs/pdf/states/georgia/press_release.pdf

648

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Raj appears to believe this is true. That we are cold, calculating machines with utilitarian operating systems.

[/quote]

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.

I feel like as we grow as a species, we do become less shitty (for lack of a better word or time to think of one) to one another and the world that supports us, but I can’t help but wonder if we really are correct in our contemporary view of what is moral and just…

Sometimes I worry if humans, our kids, 1,000 years from now will look back at our moral standards and laugh at us.

649

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:

  1. They have been instrumental in cutting $4.5 billion in food stamps, [/quote]

I bet if they did bi-monthly drug testing, to any individual on state assistance that doesn’t work at least 20 hours a week, and kicked off anyone that fails the first time they fail, they would save that much.

lol

650

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
I had promised myself that I wouldn’t post in this thread anymore because it is seriously a waste of time, however I figured one last shot at pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pro-life Movement might be in order:

  1. Over 80% of “Pro-Life” self identifiers also identify as Conservative/Republican
  2. The majority of Conservative/republicans (73%) support the death penalty
  3. The GOP moved over $300,000,000 from TANF (welfare programs for poor kids and families) to the Federal Healthy Marriage Initiative (quite a way to show that they care about the kids).
  4. They have been instrumental in cutting $4.5 billion in food stamps, a program that feeds kids (and pregnant women) to the tune of 45 million Americans. Studies show that malnutrition from fetal formation to age two leads to decreased cognitive function FOREVER. The GOP led congress is looking to trim another $134 billion over 10 years (thank you Paul Ryan).
  5. The GOP wants to kick 280,000 children off of school lunch programs, to avoid defense spending cuts and provide tax breaks for the rich. It is part of a larger 10year $33 billion dollar series of cuts that also reduces eliminates benefits for over 1.5 million poor folks. GOP Bob Bishop called the school lunch program “unconsitutional”.
  6. The GOP and its’ candidates are almost universally against Gay Marriage and Gay Adoption, despite the fact that on average roughly 130,000 children are left waiting for adoption each year.
  7. The GOP is against teaching about contraception in sex education classes, they have funded abstinence only programs nationwide, but have attempted to not fund anything that promotes/teaches contraception.
  8. The GOP is in favor of increased defense spending and decreasing spending on education,healthcare,school lunches, housing assistance, student loans, after school education programs etc.

How can a group of people state that they are pro-child when they give up on the child right after it is born? If you are so pro-child that you can’t imagine the world without those 1.6 million aborted fetuses per year, tell me where your compassion actually starts.

In Oklahoma " Medicaid paid for the treatment and delivery costs for more than 70 percent of the 26,100 unintended pregnancies in 2006, the only year for which state-by-state data is available…For the Sooner State, which had the 10th-highest percentage of such births among states that year, the price tag for prenatal and post-partum care for the woman and infant was $55.6 million while the federal government?s share of those costs was $117.6 million. Nationwide, federal and state government costs for treating and delivering unintended pregnancies in 2006 was more than $11 billion."

These costs are just for the pre-natal care and then delivery, passed right on to you, the taxpayer. What about the cost of raising a child in poverty? Well that is simple, the average taxpayer cost of raising a HEALTHY child through 18 years of public assistance is over $300,000 (counting medical, dental, housing, food and other assistance) a child with a disability can cost many times that depending on the severity of the disability.

If 70% of unplanned pregnancies are children that will receive public assistance and if we assume they are all healthy, the cost to the taxpayer will be roughly $33,600,000,000 for each batch of kids added to your tax bills. This doesn’t count the necessary increases in teachers, public employees (social workers, police, DFS, Social Security, Housing authority etc.) It seems you have a choice, abort the unplanned fetus, or open up your wallets, the GOP/RTL faction wants to do neither, there is a word for that…

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/04/25/470967/gop-school-lunch-cuts/?mobile=nc

http://thecentristword.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/gops-war-on-women-wisconsin-governor-scott-walker-signs-4-anti-woman-bills-in-secret-in-one-day/

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/statistics/adoption.cfm
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-03/curbing-female-reproductive-rights-raises-taxpayer-costs.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2266310/posts
http://www.nchcw.org/fup/
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-06-15/features/bs-gl-reimer-teen-pregnancy-20110616_1_teen-pregnancy-teen-mother-health-care
http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/costs/pdf/states/georgia/press_release.pdf[/quote]

Think progress? Seriously? LOL!
Look B r a i n, you have to learn to make arguments with out presenting strawmen, and red herrings. Every single letter of what you wrote is completely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if all pro-lifers were tu-tu’s and smoke blunts while sniffing cocaine off of toilet seats, the only thing that matters is whether or not you are taking a human life. Nothing else matters.

You’re argument suck so bad you are at risk of becoming a caricature of yourself.
Fact: there is no decernable break in the human life cycle from conception to death.
Fact: there is no such thing as a ‘partial’ or ‘potential’ human.
Therefore, in an abortion, you are taking a human life.

No amount of wishful thinking or external facets are going make that fact no true.

651

[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
So do you continue to make claims while never citing a source, or is that how you roll in Canada?

[quote]therajraj wrote: And apparently the findings of studies covering 150,000 women as well as medical and psychological organizations mean little to you either.

There is no amount of evidence that will convince you that abortion procedures rarely scar women.[/quote]
[/quote]

I posted it already.

But here you go again:

A team at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore reviewed 21 studies involving more than 150,000 women and found the high-quality studies showed no significant differences in long-term mental health between women who choose to abort a pregnancy and others.

“The best research does not support the existence of a ‘post-abortion syndrome’ similar to post-traumatic stress disorder,” Dr. Robert Blum, who led the study published in the journal Contraception, said in a statement.

“Based on the best available evidence, emotional harm should not be a factor in abortion policy. If the goal is to help women, program and policy decisions should not distort science to advance political agendas,” added Vignetta Charles, a researcher and doctoral student at Johns Hopkins who worked on the study.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/04/us-abortion-depression-idUSTRE4B30UE20081204

652

Hey raj, if you shoot a dog in the head, and the dog dies, would you expect the dog to stay dead?

653

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Like I said, all these women feel NOTHING, NOTHING at all, for the life they just snubbed out, that was growing inside of them.

Raj appears to believe this is true. That we are cold, calculating machines with utilitarian operating systems.

At the same time, he says that the life of the child, well, “fetus,” he calls it, is somehow valuable. [/quote]

So if I choose to use scientifically correct terminology in place of a loaded term like “unborn child” I am somehow less anti-abortion?

I’m here to have a normal conversation, not illicit an emotional reaction.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Yet, this same, valuable, unique life, child of his mother who will decide his death, a mother who has deemed him, essentially, too much trouble to keep, this life now becomes the equivalent of having a wisdom tooth extracted.

I’m not talking about studies right now. I’m trying to figure out what kind of thought process leads one to believe that both of these scenarios can simultaneously exist. [/quote]

And herein lies the problem. You are unable to grasp the point that people have a different moral code then you.

In this very thread you heard an individual refer to the fetus as “parasitic.” That’s not even the worst I’ve heard, you should read some of the arguments and comparisons pro-choicers make.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

Again, for clarity:

Statement 1: There is a unique human life growing inside of the womb from the moment of conception that, if we stay out of the way, contains all of the potential to become a fully grown, walking, talking, pro-abortion or pro-life supporting member of society, just like you and I were allowed to become by our mothers.

Statement 2: Can’t be bothered with having this kid (who, if I stay out of the way, contains all of the potential to become a fully grown, walking, talking, pro-abortion or pro-life supporting member of society, just like you and I were allowed to become by our mothers). Pop its head like a polyp and suck out the detritus. I’ll never have a second thought about it. Send me a survey, I’ll prove it. [/quote]

Survey =/= study

654

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.

655

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.[/quote]

It also means it is totally possible that allowing abortion is an unforgivable evil, and our kids will look back at us for monsters for allowing it.

656

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.[/quote]

Correct observation. Now the question is, even when people thought it was ok to own another human was it still wrong, or was it right because people thought it was ok?

657

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.[/quote]

It also means it is totally possible that allowing abortion is an unforgivable evil, and our kids will look back at us for monsters for allowing it.[/quote]

They will be making a correct assessment. It’s monstrous, heinous, and violent act, our tolerance of it is despicable.

658

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.[/quote]

Correct observation. Now the question is, even when people thought it was ok to own another human was it still wrong, or was it right because people thought it was ok?
[/quote]

Neither. Objective morality does not exist and subjective morality is, ultimately, arbitrary. These people did what they wanted to do and justified it with “morality”. People do the same thing today, but for different reasons.

659

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I feel like enough of our reactions to the world around us as humans is so dependant upon the times in which said human lives, that we might just be what you describe, conditioned to respond the way our particular era tells us to.
[/quote]

This is exactly it. There was a time where most people saw little wrong with owning another human being. They didn’t think twice about it.

You can draw a parallel to how abortion is seen by many today.[/quote]

Correct observation. Now the question is, even when people thought it was ok to own another human was it still wrong, or was it right because people thought it was ok?
[/quote]

Neither. Objective morality does not exist and subjective morality is, ultimately, arbitrary. These people did what they wanted to do and justified it with “morality”. People do the same thing today, but for different reasons. [/quote]

So your saying that it was ok to have slaves? You don’t see the failure of this argument? What about the slaves, did they not count then?

660

[quote]therajraj wrote:

And herein lies the problem. You are unable to grasp the point that people have a different moral code then you.

[/quote]

Oh I grasp this point perfectly. I’m trying to figure out what yours is.