T Nation

The Abortion Thread II


#42

That was my attempt at making a bit of a joke. Definitely not an easy thing to assess. Its murder when she miscarries from the assault but not murder if she elects to have the pregnancy terminated. Thats likely how it would be viewed in America among most people.

I don’t think it makes sense to allow for pregnancies to be terminated but charge people in situations like you linked from that article with murder.

A women can terminate a pregnancy. But people are not allowed to kill other people in our society. That clearly demonstrates the value of that fetus is not equivalent to a human life. So the individual should not be charged with a crime equivalent of having killed another person.


#43

Roe v Wade will be reversed, I have no doubt that will happen during the course of my life.

How many people are pro-death and later become pro-life? How many people are pro-life who become pro-death? I have never even met someone who supported life and later became pro-death, let alone heard of a story of that type of person. They might exist but I am sure it’s a tiny, tiny number if at all.


#44

What intrinsically is different with the unborn?


#45

Do you eat? If yes, then you are pro death.


#46

Asides from being unborn. Nothing I guess.


#47

This is why society allows for the unborn to be slaughtered; once they are found to be unwanted. In complete honesty, the unborn are different in their size, their level of awareness, their environments and their degree of dependency. Other than that, they are exactly the same as you and me. But even those four traits change for us individually every day!

The fact you were able to realize this speaks very highly of you, at least to me.

This simple look at the unborn is why I am so vehemently pro-LIFE. Killing a child while inside the mother is acceptable by society yet when a child/children are killed outside the womb, everyone screams for justice.

Killing the unborn by the millions is so very wrong and it saddens me greatly that many people don’t see the truth.


#48

Realizing the obvious speaks highly of me? I think most people would agree with what I said.

As I alluded to above. It might just be a bit more complicated than that. You outlaw abortion women are still going to get abortions. That is just a fact. They are just going to get the abortion on the black market in less than ideal environments by untrained people. It has been observed across the globe. An outlaw of abortion leading to a spike in maternal death rates.

Most abortions are actually performed in developing nations where abortion is outlawed.

Abortion is sought out regardless to its legality and maternal death rates due to lack of adequate facilities and trained clinicians spike when its not legal. Don’t you think it is unethical to not provide these services knowing this? I am not a fan of abortion at all. But at least from a pragmatic perspective it makes sense right?

If you want to look into the ethics of abortion further you should look into antinatilism and arguments against it. Because you’er not going to convince anyone abortion is wrong with what your saying now. Certainly not the pro choice people.


#49

Yes, an adult human has a lot in common with a zygote.


#50

I guess I’ll humor this for a comment or two.

I’m pro-choice, but nothing you’ve said is wrong or incorrect, I suppose I’ll just list my alternative thoughts for it:

  1. From a non religious background, at the expense of sounding cold hearted; abortion is aggressive population control, of which most countries desperately need. The quality of life is rapidly decreasing on a grand scale. The world simply cant supply the resources needed to sustain the spike in population. This is the biggest cop-out answer, but still holds merit.

  2. While not impossible, it is much harder for the average (American, at least) young adult to bounce on their feet at the age of 20, and sustain themselves, let alone a child, when compared to a few decades ago, while still retaining the raging need to… well… get laid as has always existed. I dont want to wear the big mellinial sign over my head, personally I’m doing fine, but the vast majority of people in my town, of my age, simply couldn’t support another life, even at 26; and well… shit happens.

  3. Rape. The one part of pro-choice that I aggressively stand beside. The only part I consider black and white. If a girl is raped, she should have absolutely every right to decide what happens to that child, no one else gets to make that call.

Abortion is on my list of things that I dont believe will ever have a correct answer. Right up with Politics and Religion. As soon as you align yourself whole heartedly with a side, absolutely nothing anyone says to you will ever change your mind. People just absorb it as a core trait. I believe most Americans would literally rather die than change political views, not for the actual ever changing values, but for the fucking color. Abortion is on the same page. The vast majority of people will think less of the opposing view, and see them as lesser people as a whole because of it. It will always be a heated climate, and personally, my opinion has never been swayed by talking down to me and getting rowdy.


#51

I am not sure, but to me, it is immaterial the type of life one leads. After all, we are not here permanently. There will come a time when your maker will recall you. At that point, you will not request to be buried with all your earthly possession. The point is that life is sanctified and so abortion should be illegal. Let the children go hungry for one or two days but they will soon find something to eat. Look at the birds. They don’t farm, don’t plan to keep food in the silos when the fields are ripe. But they live to see the next season. So don’t restrict life just because we want to lead to enjoy life. What is this thing you call enjoying life?


#52

:roll_eyes: That just sounds pathetic. I know you didn’t want to wear the millennial sign, but that will definitely do it.


#53

You’re not wrong, I did fine, and anyone with anything close to self worth and work ethic could do the same, but it’s a fact there is a bigger gap between minimum wage and cost of living than there used to be. (Just to clarify, the $15 minimum wage solution is a pile of shit, but something needs to change) it’s not impossible, hell, it’s completely doable, but it is simply more difficult, at least from my perspective in my city.


#54

All in the name of choice.

3rd Trimester Induction Abortion: Injection and Stillbirth


#55

oglebee, I was giving you compliment. Generally people who support abortion don’t see abortion for what it is.

The outlawing of abortion will have positive and negative effects. Sure women will do "back aley abortions" but that already happens. There is a guy who was caught doing abortions in the trunk of his car and abortion is legal in all fifty states! However making abortion illegal will save the lives of some children. With the election of Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court many people believe abortion in the nation will be outlawed. Most likely all that would happen is a reversal to a time when each state would rule on abortion, just like before Roe v Wade in 1973.

There are only three countries that have outlawed abortion and that is Chile, Poland and Ireland; none of those are developing nations. In both Chile and Ireland they both recently voted to allow for birth control and birth control is a slippery slope to abortion. Kennedy on the Supreme Court said in Planned Parenthood v Casey that abortion had to be legal and allowed for when birth control fails; don’t forget Kennedy is a CINO, a Catholic In Name Only.

There are many reasons to look and argue against abortion. I can use logic, science, reason and my faith to argue against abortion. In everything involving logic, science and reason all support what my faith teaches me. Because there are over forty thousand different Christian faiths alone in this country, I leave that method to the side and use the other three.

If you think simply going to a death chamber somehow makes abortion safe, please listen to the videos I posted and the dangers they all possess. Abortion not only kills an innocent child (which is enough to make it wrong) but the various procedures are far from safe.

I’m sorry I don’t follow what you are saying about antinatalism. I am simply showing these videos because I think many people don’t know what abortion actually is. When I was in college, there was a kid in my pottery class who thought life didn’t begin (sentience) until the baby traveled down the ~4" birth canal. Was that that young guy coming from a place of knowledge? I think it was nothing but a position of ignorance.

Next I’ll post a video of what the actual process is. Fair warning.


#56

Warning, this video gets graphic.

If you want to sign in to YouTube, click on the ABORTION LIVE video. Or you can watch the video in the browser.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=live+video+of+surgical+abortion&t=ffab&atb=v135-6__&iar=videos&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=wnMt468uG-w


#57

Here is my perspective -

1- Look to the turn of the twentieth century and the EXACT same arguments existed. “The population bomb” never happened and we have just a few more people than we did one hundred years ago.

2- If raising a child when you are at the age, what gives you the right to have consequence free sex?

3- Rape accounts for a quarter of a quarter percent of abortions. So are you trying to use the extremely rare cases to justify the slaughter of millions?

Killing an innocent child is always wrong. Would you kill a two year old child because they were (insert reason)? A child in the womb shares the same characteristics as a child outside the womb. If I am wrong, use logic, science or reason to prove that case.


#58

For your first point, just look down the first 6 pages of Google, and you’ll see about sixty results that all show the world population in 1950 @ 2.5 billion, vs 7.5 billion today. That’s more than double the population in half the time frame.

  1. That’s true, and just to clarify, I’ve never experienced an abortion with any of my previous (or current) partners. There are far too many precautions you can take to avoid it. Even then, I have a friend who was on birth control, and using protection, who popped out a kid. They kept it, but it goes to show shit happens. It’s rare, but I dont feel like they should have been ostracized if they had decided to abort it. You can argue all day long that “you shouldn’t have sex if you’re not ready for the kid” but I remember being 16 and would literally walk miles at 3 in the morning to get laid. I’ll be damned now, but the drive was so incredibly strong, and I know I would never have been ready for a kid at that age. Theres a clear line between morality, and insatiable lust here, but at 16 it wasnt even the slightest concern for me.

  2. I’m not making excuses for the extreme cases, but I feel as though, at the very least, under any and all circumstances, including making abortions completely illegal, if a woman was raped, and its proven, she should be allowed to have an abortion.

As for your final comment, I’m really not that passionate about this subject, but I do think a first trimester… embryo… is miles apart from a 2 year old. It just is, at least how I view it. Were talking about a parasitic growth, who’s only train of “thought” if you could call it that, is to absorb nutrients. As opposed to a 2 year old who holds the entire fate of the world in your hands.

Abortion is a nasty fucking subject, and in a perfect world it would never have to be done. I agree it’s bad, and in most aspects of life i consider myself morally just to a fault, but I dont think we can just cover this up and hope the child gets raised properly by… somebody.

On one hand, you end the life of something that was going to have a terrible fucking childhood that could pull through and become a great person.

On the other, you risk the kid growing up, not being provided for, falling off the wagon, and just generally becoming a victim of circumstance.

Neither is great.

All I know is, in my town, I know about 1 good set of parents for every 5. And about 2 out of 5 are on heroin.

Honestly, I’d be down for giving everyone an ultimatum at 16yo, get fixed, or be forced to keep your child if you were to have one. Unfortunately the government doesnt really seem to work that way


#59

1- You brought up the idea and danger of “the population bomb” and like I said, in the late 1800 to the early 1900’s that was a common “fear” among the higher echelons of society during that time. Margret Sanger developed birth control to limit “the undesirables” (the Negro population). If you want I can find it, but if you were to contain the population of the world into one area, you could fit the world’s population into an area the size of Texas and everyone would have a comfortable area to live in. Drive from Spokane, Washington to Phoenix, Arizona; the same can be said for driving through Argentina and down along Chile. Given these are not third world countries but we are far, far from overpopulated in this world. In Malaysia the population is huge yet they can contain construction debris as the work in a construction site and people are not affected by the dust from the demolishing and building of the structures. People have invented ways to contain that dust while generating revenue from advertisement on the filter panels around the construction site.

2- You never answered the question. "What gives you or anyone that right to partake in a known activity which is known to create life without consequence?" Just to clarify for you, ALL birth control is abortifacient unless they are barriers like condoms or diaphragms. So you unintentionally have participated in chemical abortions with your partners every time you use birth control.

3- How does a more violent act make the original violent act better, in any way?

4- The unborn are (1)whole, (2) distinct, (3) complete, (4) human (5) beings from the moment of conception. They are different in their Size, Level of awareness, Environment and Degree of dependency (SLED) and those traits are all shared by every human on earth! When we take a breath, our size changes. As we fall asleep at night, our level of awareness changes. Stand in on area in your house, take one step in one direction anywhere and you are in a different environment. As we grew up our degree of dependency changes and as we pass through life it s a parabola. The unborn are no different than how you and I are different, they just happen to be defenseless.

Life is rough and far from fair. However killing a defenseless child is always wrong, especially when that child is perfectly innocent. Punish the adults that create the situations where the bad environments exist. But how does killing an innocent child help a terrible situation in anyway? You have talked about a bad situation, but how does killing a child let alone killing another human being make a situation any better? The only example I can think of is when my life is being threatened by another person.

I don’t really follow your thought experiment, can you explain better please? You want a young buy at sixteen to decide their genetic future by castrating them? Our brains don’t even finish developing until something like twenty-five years of age.


#60

Has anyone watched the video? If you support abortion, do you still support the action after watching a surgical abortion?


#61