That Big Weak Guy

Bigger Stronger Leaner
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I don’t know what he benches, because he’s relatively new to the gym and I’ve never seen him bench. In fact I’ve never seen him lift heavy, at all. He does a lot bodybuilding isolation stuff. I did see him squat the other day and he didn’t go above 225, though. Maybe he’s like Yogi and trains really light but is actually super strong, but if I had to bet money, I would say not. In fact I’d bet $1000 he can’t squat 450, even if we gave him a month to “peak” for it. And his leg development is solid… not amazing, but solid. Bigger legs than me.

He benched the other day and worked up to 205 x 3, going halfway down. Now, this was after multiple lighter sets so not a true max, but even if we give him credit for 205x5 with full-range reps… or what the hell, 205x10… I don’t think that’s particularly strong, given his appearance.

Haha okay fair point, the picture sucks. But I’m pretty sure he’s what a lot of guys on this board would call “fat.” They’d argue he’s not actually “big” or “muscular”. In any case, his bench is definitely good, but my guess is that his other lifts are not. I don’t know for sure because he has a home gym and I’ve never seen him squat or deadlift. Bench is th eonly lift he does in the gym… go figure. But based on comments he’s made to me I’m reasonably confident he’s disproportionately weak on squat/deadlift, compared to his bench.

Fair enough. I’m fine with those numbers. I guess part of my point from the beginning though is that to appear “big,” one doesn’t need to have impressive lower body development. The mirror selfie, the internet pic, even tv/movies rarely even show the legs. But if we’re talking about a guy being STRONG, overall, the legs are a big part of that, don’t you think?

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I think I understand where you’re going now, but it’s kind of a silly path to take in my opinion. You’re basically contending that for a person to fit your definition of ‘strong’, he’s gotta be strong all over. I don’t agree with that. I know a guy who is one of the best bench pressers in the world. His bench is like 560 I believe, in competition, and at a bodyweight of either 242 or 225, can’t remember for sure. One of the best ever. He never, ever does full meets, just does bench-only. And I can’t think of him as anything but strong. You could cut off his legs completely, he’s still strong. It seems that your contention at this point is, if a guy has a great upper body, you may not consider him to be strong unless his lower body matches to some degree. I don’t really buy into that. I’m sure I’ve said about some guys “yea, he’s strong, doesn’t train legs though.” So that’s where we differ. I think if you’re just hitting one or more of the numbers I listed above, you get to be in the strong category. Hitting multiple numbers makes you strongER.

As for a couple of your other points: the ‘fat’ guy in the jacket. If he’s legitimately as strong as you say he is, I think he would HAVE to look big. It’s hard for me to imagine he doesn’t with a bench press that strong. Plenty of big guys are carrying a lot of fat. Generally speaking though, you can usually still tell if they’re carrying a fair amount of muscle underneath. A strong fat guy looks different from a weak one.

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I think by now we will have to agree to disagree on the definition of “strong”.

Let’s talk about strong lifts instead.

In this case, I would look at the size of his LEGS(or his ass if he’s hip dominant). This is why I refrain from including the untrained population’s perception of how strong a guy looks. If I see a guy with big legs and hips, I know this dude can seriously do some damage even if his upper body is not very developed.

Now, if his upper body sucks, his bench will probably not be very impressive unless he’s severely contorting his body to significantly reduce the ROM.

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Don’t you think there is a question of degree, though? A guy who benches 560 and has a “respectable” if not super strong squat/deadlift is one thing, but a guy who’s 200 lbs and benches 280 and has a really shitty squat/deadlift? It’s a stretch to call that guy strong, in my opinion.

I just think that if we’re talking about what qualifies as a “strong” guy, it should take into account strength across the body. I mean what percent of your total muscle mass is involved in the bench press? But that’s the primary lift we’re going to use to determine strength, just because it’s an upper body lift?

If we’re talking about strength in a performance context, whether that’s athletics or even the military, it’s kind of difficult to call a guy strong if he can’t even pick up 400 lbs off the ground, imo.

And even if we put that aside and just talk about bench press… I still think it’s a stretch to say a 180-190lb guy benching 250-280 qualifies as “strong.”

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Well, I’m open to an alternate definition of “strong” if you want to suggest one.

As far as strong lifts, I guess I’m just not as confident as you are that one can tell how strong a guy is from looking at his muscular development. That because a guy has developed certain muscles that he will be strong on certain lifts, or vice versa. I have just seen too many cases with my own eyes where this does not bear out.

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Well, of course there are degrees. These are relative terms in the first place. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with that. You’re kind of splitting hairs now. I think you’re trying to find an exact line where strong doesn’t apply anymore, and that’s super subjective. There are a zillion examples of guys strong in one area and deficient in others that I’m sure you could come up with.

And we’re using the bench press right now to determine strength because that involves the most visible body parts in the picture you posted. Not only that, we’re talking about ‘guys who look big’. Mostly what we really mean by that is ‘guys who have a large upper body’, because humans, in general cover their legs more than their torsos. Most men aren’t wearing skin tight pants regularly, so it’s hard to guess if they have strong legs or not. So yes, it is a convenient metric for our discussion.

I think your example of not being able to pick 400 lbs off the ground as being ‘not strong’ is mostly true. I used 450-500 as my example of strong. But again, that’s going to be dependent on other things. If the person just sucks at deadlifting, but can put a ton of weight overhead or something, that’s alright. There are guys out there who can clean and jerk 250+ and not deadlift more than 400. They’re still strong.

As to your final example. Yes, that example of a 190lbs guy benching 250 is most definitely a stretch. That’s why I put it at the absolute lowest level I could call strong, and again it’s subjective. I mean we’re literally talking about if he adds 20 lbs or so to his bench from that point, he becomes more solidly in the strong category. And it seems like something magical happens between 280 and 300, lol.

I think I’ve mentioned this, but I think irregularity of a given lift in a standard commercial gym is what helps me determine whether or not someone is strong. When I’m at my gym, I almost NEVER see anybody bench pressing over 315. I have 1 friend I lift with who does regularly. He’s the only regular at my gym who goes around the same time in the evening as I do who can do it. Half the gym is watching me when I’ve got the bar loaded at 350+. So I know those lifts are considered to be strong to a regular gym-goer. So if 315 is strong to a person who goes to the gym regularly, I have to lower the standard EVEN MORE to incorporate the perspective of the rest of the population. And that’s how standards end up so seemingly low.

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This topic has been delightfully insane, but allow me to interject a few things.

1: It is silly that we are trying to compare guys who are “big” to the average person in terms of “strong” to the average t-nation poster. We should either make the comparison all inclusive between average people or t-nation posters, as otherwise it’s meaningless. We have already observed that when a t-nation poster talks “big”, they mean something different, and when they say “strong” that means something different as well, so of course trying to cross compare won’t work.

2: On the above, the average person has no genuine concept of either of these terms, mainly because physical fitness and culture is SO far removed from pop culture. Something like 70% of Americans are overweight and 1/3 of Americans are obese; to this population, simply being “not fat” is an accomplishment. The average person things Brad Pitt in Fight Club was big, and that a 225lb bench is strong (yet, at the same time, they all benched 350 in high school, and they have a cousin that benches 800 raw in his basement gym, but I digress).

3: We can NOT equate “weight moved” with “strong”. This does not work. Anyone who has ever actually moved some serious weight KNOWS that there is more to it than simply being strong. Here is a great demonstration of that.

That’s a long video, but I can give you the cliffs.

-Big strongman gets outlifted by small weightlifter on the overhead with the barbell.

No one is going to call that weightlifter big (f**k you if you do, you’re just being argumentative at that point). I think we could get enough people to call the strongman big.

Is anyone going to call that weightlifter strong? Really? Are you sure? Because I see a guy that is SKILLED. I see a guy that can move some serious weight DESPITE not being all that strong, because he knows how to get the most out of what he has. Meanwhile, the strongman HAS to be strong to move the weight he moves, because he has no other avenue available to him. He doesn’t have the same amount of skill to fall back on, so he has to use STRENGTH to move the weight.

This is why it gets silly to try to compare amount of weight moved between 2 guys, especially when you take one guy who trains especially for that lift and compare it to a guy that doesn’t. Let’s take the bench for example. Here are some fun ways to improve your numbers on the bench without getting strong.

-Use leg drive (not just better leg drive; ANY leg drive. See how many big guys DON’T do this on the bench)

-Increase your arch

-Know when/how to tuck/flare your elbows

-Pull the bar apart

-Grip the barbell as hard as you can (irradiation)

-Take a deep breath and expand your rib box as much as possible

-Spray the bench down with hairspray/spray tacky so that you don’t slip

And keep in mind that all these tips are coming from a terrible bencher.

You get to see when someone is STRONG when you take them completely out of their element and give them a lift they’ve had zero opportunity to train directly. Skill goes out the window, and all they have going for them is raw grit and strength. The first World’s Strongest Man was a great example of this (and, consequently, Lou Ferrigno did awesome, and goddamn Franco Columbo was kicking ass at around 200lbs bodyweight before he broke his kneecaps on the fridge run, go bodybuilding).

Real, true, honest to god strength looks UGLY. Someone moves a weight DESPITE themselves.

Amazingly, I’ve got more, but I doubt anyone is going to want to read all of this, and I imagine some folks are going to want to dissect every single sentence I wrote and come up with a counter argument for it. I don’t mind being wrong, as long as I’m bigger and stronger than the person who is right.

5 Likes
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Heck, one more example. Here is why many contend that Paul Anderson was one of (if not THE) strongest men to ever walk the planet.

When is the last time you saw someone clean 435lbs in slow motion? That is some ugly strength.

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That sounds about right. Most of the strongman guys(around late teens to early 20s) I’ve been training with generally squat around 405-ish for a max to a couple of reps depending on their bodyweight. That being said, of course they’re stronger if you’re comparing them to the general public. However, I’d like to think of myself as having slightly higher standards for myself.

Oh and to add on.

Since we’re not keeping into account height/weight/etc, it’s hard to give a definite number. That being said, when you see someone strict log press 160kgs… You really do feel like a mere mortal. Especially since he’s like a mere 2 years older(21) than you.

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To be clear, I didn’t mean to suggest that all the guys in that photo are “big but weak.” It was just a photo I took to give us some examples to work with (I wasn’t going to wait around all day in the gym for the guys I consider ideal “big but weak” candidates to show up and then snap a photo right in their faces, haha).

The guy who can bench 380 is definitely strong, in my opinion, even if his other lifts are not as impressive. But let’s use him to illustrate a point.

We can all agree that more muscle mass = more potential for strength, other factors being equal. But potential for strength does not = strength. Strength is the ability to exert force against an external resistance. And I don’t think that just because a guy has “appreciable muscle mass” that he has developed the capacity to exert force efficiently. And I reject the idea that it’s just a matter of a big guy spending a few weeks “peaking” – if he hasn’t trained his strength, he won’t have it.

Similarly, in my opinion, the larger someone’s POTENTIAL for strength, the stronger they need to be in order to be called “strong.” When we compare a 300 lb guy to a 150 lb guy, we generally aren’t going to think of them as equally strong if they both bench press 250.

The more muscle mass, the more potential, the stronger a guy should be. Right?

So if you have a guy who has been training legs once a week with a typical bodybuilding.com routine – a few sets of squats, some leg presses, then extensions and curls – it’s entirely conceivable that he might develop a significant amount of muscle mass in his legs without developing his ability to exert force efficiently. He’s using light weight, high reps, adding volume before weight on the bar, using all of Yogi’s special tricks, etc.

So when I see a guy with appreciable muscle maxing out at 275x5 on the squat – achievable in 6 months by an average dude – I’m not going to consider him anywhere close to strong. He is weak. Overall, yes, but ESPECIALLY for his size / potential - he has the muscle mass, the potential, but not the strength. He could still GET strong, and it would be easier for him than for a skinny-fat beginner, but it would not necessarily happen that fast – he would still have to develop his strength normally over time via training.

Depends on what you mean by “sucks at deadlifting,” I think. It’s hard for me to imagine a legitimate scenario where a guy we’re going to call “strong” can’t lift 400 off the floor with a little practice. Beyond injuries or really weird structural/leverage stuff.

It’s about potential, to me. A 190lbs guy at 12% bodyfat is carrying a significant amount of LBM… he has a pretty high potential for strength. If he can only bench 250, I don’t think he’s strong. Even 280 isn’t that strong, is it? If he trained his bench intelligently for 6 months or a year how much stronger could he get?

So very few guys at your gym bench over 315… and how many guys at your gym would you consider to have “appreciable muscle mass”?

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I see what you’re saying, but the x-factor is potential, per my post above. More muscle = more potential for strength. So what qualifies a “muscular” guy as strong? (Was the initial question).

I’m not interested in what the average person (non-lifter) thinks is strong, because they have no idea. Like, they have really no clue at all, haha – how strong an average guy can get in 6 months or a year, nevermind 5. But when it comes to physique, the main reason most guys train is for how the general population perceives them. We talk about actors in movies being big. Magazines, etc.

I’m open to hearing other people definitions of “big”, but if we’re going to narrow the category down to just physiques that are “internet impressive” then it’s a totally different discussion. Because virtually zero of those guys are going to be what I initially meant by “weak.”

Haha. That is funny re: bench press. But I think you’re exaggerating a bit that people think Brad Pitt is “big.” People think The Rock and Vin Diesel and Hugh Jackman and the Thor dude are “big.” And that’s more or less the definition I had in mind (though The Rock is pushing toward “huge” rather than “big”).

I like the video. He’s basically jerking the weight up though instead of push pressing, right?

I mean, you’re definitely right that technique plays a big role if we’re talking about specific lifts, and that “weight moved” is not necessarily an accurate criterion. And if we’re trying to come up with a really inclusive and sophisticated definition of “strength”, those things would be important.

Personally, I was just trying to suggest there are cases where it’s more or less egregious. Like a muscular 190 lb guy only benching 250, or squatting 315. That’s a pretty low level of strength per LBM no matter how you slice it, imo.

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You have some very interesting thoughts on the matter of getting bigger and stronger Craze.

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Are you being sarcastic? I can’t tell.

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Not sarcastic, but diplomatic. I find the theories you have on the subject unique.

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Haha. Unique, eh? I’ll take it. Though I honestly don’t know what I’ve said that’s so controversial.

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I have noticed that.

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When I started lifting it was generally said on the internet that 200/300/400/500 was baseline strong. All I’m saying here is that there are plenty of guys considered “big” – muscular dudes with good physiques – who can’t hit those numbers. And that it’s not just a matter of “peaking” for a few weeks to hit them – they are months if not years of training away from them.

Controversial? Maybe. But I see it so frequently it’s hard for me to feel differently. And I don’t consider myself particularly strong – “baseline”, perhaps. Nothing exceptional.

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The internet is a silly place. Stuart McRobert had similar numbers for a 5’10 190lb man, but it would of course need to scale for bodyweight.

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Agreed. I’ve seen 175/275/400/500 mentioned as numbers for guys on the lighter side and 200/300/450/550 for heavier. I don’t necessarily think the details matter that much – if a guy is a few pounds below on a lift or two – but the ballpark doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.

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I love this thread so much.

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