Thanksgiving, My How Things have Changed:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Things never change. People seize upon unholy anti Christian abuses committed by somebody claiming divine authority and run wildly amuck slinging artificial mud everywhere. I promise you neither Washington nor I (nor the bible) endorse the legitimately bad things you cite.
[/quote]

You act as if the things I cite were perpetrated by fringe groups. In most of the cases I listed, the ``somebody claiming divine authority’’ happened to be respected leaders of various churches and/or the christian community at at large. As for specific examples, Washington held slaves. I would say owning slaves is a fairly straightforward endorsement of the legitimacy of slavery. The Bible certainly endorses slavery outright and only indirectly speaks against it. As for Women’s rights, the Bible is even worse.

Besides, as you yourself would probably claim, the point isn’t what a certain ideology holds—liberals and progressives certainly have good intentions and nice sounding rhetoric—but what it leads too. All I was doing was pointing to the fruits of christian ideology, just as you were (presumably) pointing to the fruits of liberal and progressive ideology. [/quote]Well we’re right in schedule. Another bible expert who knows exactly zero about anything it says. Really, maybe later.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Here’s the real point: villainizing those who hold different political, religious and moral views isn’t looked nicely upon. Claiming, in sweeping and general terms, that modern western society is a moral waste land while neglecting the fruits of progressivism and ignoring the flaws of the judeo-christian tradition isn’t a good way to start a dialog and perpetuates falsehoods.

[/quote]

Then contradict my list.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

No, that is a personal evaluation of what is worse.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
<<< Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.[/quote]And off we go.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

No, that is a personal evaluation of what is worse.

[/quote]

No my Austrian friend those are facts which you will find to be true if you decide to check.

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.[/quote]

Yes one man Adolph Hitler decided to start a war, and our ancestors went after him and won. I’m very proud of America especially during those times. Tom Brokaw (not known for his conservatism) called those folks “The Greatest Generation”. I believe that he was correct. Moral values were better back then as pointed out in the list that I made in a previous post.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

No, that is a personal evaluation of what is worse.

[/quote]

No my Austrian friend those are facts which you will find to be true if you decide to check.
[/quote]

That is not the point.

Even if all of those were facts that does not make these intrinsically better with all other things that were going on.

That is just your personal opinion, I doubt that it would be if you were black, or Catholic, or gay or a woman, or Jewish or anything other than a white, male, WASP.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.[/quote]

Yes one man Adolph Hitler decided to start a war, and our ancestors went after him and won. I’m very proud of America especially during those times. Tom Brokaw (not known for his conservatism) called those folks “The Greatest Generation”. I believe that he was correct. Moral values were better back then as pointed out in the list that I made in a previous post.
[/quote]

It is more like men were forced at gunpoint to enter a war they did not want to get into in the first place and that would not have happened the way it did had Woodrow Wilson not done the same to their fathers.

If that is what it takes to belong to the “greatest generation” it is not much of an achievement.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.[/quote]

Yes one man Adolph Hitler decided to start a war, and our ancestors went after him and won. I’m very proud of America especially during those times. Tom Brokaw (not known for his conservatism) called those folks “The Greatest Generation”. I believe that he was correct. Moral values were better back then as pointed out in the list that I made in a previous post.
[/quote]

It is more like men were forced at gunpoint to enter a war they did not want to get into in the first place and that would not have happened the way it did had Woodrow Wilson not done the same to their fathers.

If that is what it takes to belong to the “greatest generation” it is not much of an achievement.

[/quote]

Oh darn I was hoping that your post was going to refute my long list of why things were morally better then. But I guess you don’t want to discuss that do you?


I wonder if she thinks things were “morally better” in the 50s and 60s.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I wonder if she thinks things were “morally better” in the 50s and 60s. [/quote]

BEFORE you responded you should have read my first few posts “over all MOST things were better then.”

ZEB and others others:

Let me get this straight. Say your facts are true. They might be, but as I said I’m doubtful whether there is much of a difference. You claim that a world with something approaching universal human rights—universal rights of speech, expression, religion, personhood—but with higher rates of violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity (to condense your list) is WORSE than a world with the institutionalized slavery of entire races of people, the institutional suppression of women, large numbers of nation states under tyrannical and dictatorial control and other people groups subjected to large scale colonization, but with lower rates of violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity?

And remember, the question isn’t whether the current moral state of our world is worse than the current moral state of the world 50, 100, 200, etc. years ago IF ONLY everyone in that past world had followed your version of the Bible and not done abhorrent things like perpetuated slavery. The question is whether the present world, as it actually is, is morally worse than the world 50, 100, 200, etc. years ago as it as actually was.

If you really, really think so, then the only logical conclusion seems to be that you think that somehow petty violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity is worse than the dehumanization of entire people groups through slavery, dictatorship and the repression of human rights.

Oh wait, I know. It’s not just the current violent crime, drug use, and all that. It’s those damn progressives and liberals. Yes, that’s it. The fact that some people in this country think individuals have a social obligation to help the poor and needy certainly tips the scales in favor of the past. Large groups of people might have been dehumanized in the past, but at least there weren’t any social movements to tax for the sack of helping the poor. That’s it.

And remember, no one here is claiming the present world is perfect or without it’s flaws. The claim is that overall substantial moral progress has been made from, say, 50, 100, 200 years ago.

But anyway, back to the original question. If you really, really think today’s world is morally worse off than the good’ol days, then … well, I won’t say what I think.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I wonder if she thinks things were “morally better” in the 50s and 60s. [/quote]

BEFORE you responded you should have read my first few posts “over all MOST things were better then.”
[/quote]

Exactly. That’s what makes it so laughable.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

Did you say they were better 50-60 years ago? Pretty sure that was the generation that managed to start a world war. That’s over 60 million lives. Painful, horrible, spiteful deaths.[/quote]

Yes one man Adolph Hitler decided to start a war, and our ancestors went after him and won. I’m very proud of America especially during those times. Tom Brokaw (not known for his conservatism) called those folks “The Greatest Generation”. I believe that he was correct. Moral values were better back then as pointed out in the list that I made in a previous post.
[/quote]

It wasn’t just one man who started a war.

Many men undertook to war. Slavery was rife, and many nations were just about wrenching themselves free of colonialism.

How the japanese treated prisoners of war. How the jews were decimated (one man did this right?) I absolutely love the ego-centrism of your statement which brings it back to america - if you’re going to talk about morals back then, you must accept evidence from all parts of the western world at the very least. Don’t be proud of a generation that still viewed blacks as an inferior race.

The list goes on, but you get the point. You can’t claim that generation to have better morals than ours.

Promiscuity? May not be the best thing in the world (sometimes it is!) but it hardly compares. That said, I do accept that humans now are just as fucked up as they were then. We at least recognise the fact.

Homosexuals? Do you know that the proportion of homosexuals was probably the same throughout the ages? Plenty of man-loving around mate.

AIDS - sorry, explain your train of thoughts here re: morals?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving![/quote]
Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn’t it a good thing we’ve progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we’re blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We’ve come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the “religious right”. How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.[/quote]

What the politically correct, atheists leftists don’t understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn’t usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it’s all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.
[/quote]

Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire—or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity—ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It’s inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one’s actions. Surely it’s because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.
[/quote]

Without a strong moral base it’s obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it’s not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you’d have to tell me why it is as it is. SO…I’m waiting. [/quote]

That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.
[/quote]

-More Cchildren being born into a family with both a mother and a father (MARRIED).

-Lower murder rate

-Less burglaries

-Less armed robberies

-Less rape

-Less drug use (and hence drug related crime)

-Less alcoholism as it’s doubled since 1960 (less people killed by drunk drivers)

-Less teen pregnancy

-No AIDS virus

I could go on and on - I’m not saying things were perfect 50 or 60 years ago, but generally morally they were a heck of a lot better than they are now - Yeah that’s a fact!

[/quote]

No, that is a personal evaluation of what is worse.

[/quote]

No my Austrian friend those are facts which you will find to be true if you decide to check.
[/quote]

That is not the point.

Even if all of those were facts that does not make these intrinsically better with all other things that were going on.

That is just your personal opinion, I doubt that it would be if you were black, or Catholic, or gay or a woman, or Jewish or anything other than a white, male, WASP.

[/quote]

ONCE AGAIN, as I said “NOT EVERYTHING WAS BETTER”. But over all we were a morally stronger nation. And there is no disputing that. As I said just look at all of the statistics. There is hardly even one that is better today.

It’s a fact!

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I wonder if she thinks things were “morally better” in the 50s and 60s. [/quote]

BEFORE you responded you should have read my first few posts “over all MOST things were better then.”
[/quote]

Exactly. That’s what makes it so laughable. [/quote]

You can laugh all you want, but you cannot refute the facts that I’ve posted. That makes you an idiot for laughing, or you just like to be wrong. Either way it doesn’t change the facts. We were morally superior over all 50-60 years ago.

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Many men undertook to war. Slavery was rife, and many nations were just about wrenching themselves free of colonialism.[/quote]

You know the biggest problem with these threads that I’ve seen through the years is that most just want to pontificate. Hence, they never actually read other peoples posts fully.

I SAID 50 OR SO YEARS AGO. GOT IT?

I’m exceptionally proud of my ancestors who fought in WWII and lived through the great depression. They were indeed the greatest generation. And LIKE I SAID (eye roll) NOT EVERYTHING WAS BETTER.

Oh but I do and I’ve backed it up with facts and you could not rebut even one of them.

I’ve talked to enough people in their 80’s and read enough history to understand that things were IN FACT morally better 50 or so years ago. If you are so confident all you have to do is refute the facts that I posted earlier. Can’t do it?

Prove it.

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
ZEB and others others:

Let me get this straight. Say your facts are true. They might be, but as I said I’m doubtful whether there is much of a difference. You claim that a world with something approaching universal human rights—universal rights of speech, expression, religion, personhood—but with higher rates of violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity (to condense your list) is WORSE than a world with the institutionalized slavery of entire races of people, the institutional suppression of women, large numbers of nation states under tyrannical and dictatorial control and other people groups subjected to large scale colonization, but with lower rates of violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity?

And remember, the question isn’t whether the current moral state of our world is worse than the current moral state of the world 50, 100, 200, etc. years ago IF ONLY everyone in that past world had followed your version of the Bible and not done abhorrent things like perpetuated slavery. The question is whether the present world, as it actually is, is morally worse than the world 50, 100, 200, etc. years ago as it as actually was.

If you really, really think so, then the only logical conclusion seems to be that you think that somehow petty violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity is worse than the dehumanization of entire people groups through slavery, dictatorship and the repression of human rights.

Oh wait, I know. It’s not just the current violent crime, drug use, and all that. It’s those damn progressives and liberals. Yes, that’s it. The fact that some people in this country think individuals have a social obligation to help the poor and needy certainly tips the scales in favor of the past. Large groups of people might have been dehumanized in the past, but at least there weren’t any social movements to tax for the sack of helping the poor. That’s it.

And remember, no one here is claiming the present world is perfect or without it’s flaws. The claim is that overall substantial moral progress has been made from, say, 50, 100, 200 years ago.

But anyway, back to the original question. If you really, really think today’s world is morally worse off than the good’ol days, then … well, I won’t say what I think. [/quote]

LOL, who cares what you think. You have one task…refute my list of facts or SHAAADUP!