T Nation

Thanksgiving, My How Things have Changed:



Too bad the ACLU wasn't there to stop this outrage. Same thing I said last year. To which AlisaV responded that this message wouldn't unite the country any more to which I replied that that was exactly why it was in the shape it was in.

EDIT: No jab against Alisa who I have a genuine fondness and respect for. Only recalling a conversation.


Yeah, Happy Thanksgiving!


Indeed, happy thanksgiving to everybody.

Isn't it a good thing we've progressed so far above this level of ignorance? Now we're blessed with decimated families, overcrowded prisons, depraved, violent sickness rotting our cities, our children killing us and each other and an astronomical mountain of crippling socialist debt. We've come a long way baby from those loathsome times of the restrictive morality of the "religious right". How tragic it would be to give up all this freedom now and go back to that.


But we gotz the internetz!


Which if used the right way is a magnificent thing. Had we been the country we are now from the beginning? Well there wouldn't have been a beginning, but had we been, we would never have accomplished what we have.


Well, actually the first Europeans that arrived were very religious but also dabbled in socialism until they were so fucked up that they needed to be bailed out by the Indians.

So I guess you kind of are were you started.


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Ah yes, a time when a group of christians were literally forced across the globe by their christian brothers with threats of imprisonment and death, all because of slight doctrinal differences. A time when those dissenting christians without the opportunity to travel half way around the world were put into prisons and tortured. A time when plagues, for which no treatments or cures where known, were thought to be the wrath of God. A time when people were so moral that the European continent was in a state of perpetual war. They were truly blessed with decimated families (from plague, infant motality, etc.), overcrowded prisons (all those damn jews, muslims, and rowdy christians), depraved and violent sickness rotting their cities (no sewer, plague victims, the corpses of state-executed dissidents) and an astronomical mountain of crippling imperial debt so high that the taxes their kings were forced to levy caused revolutions. (I'll continue: a time when women were second-class citizens with no control of their lives and the average male was little better, when slavery was an established institution, a time when mental illness was thought of as demon possession, or when the states had so much power that what are today personal matters---adultery, homosexuality, etc.---were crimes.)

See how fun making up hyperbolic horse shit can be?

ps. where do I sign up to go back to 1600? Now that I think about it, it sounds great.


Holy shit, what a response. Too funny.


What the politically correct, atheists leftists don't understand is that the further we push God away the more we need tougher laws and big government to fill the void. We are going through that metamorphosis right now.

For example,

When most children followed their parents (two parents married to each other yeah) to church they didn't usually go out that night and impregnate their girlfriends. Now it's all okay because that pregnant girlfriend can collect government aid. This is only one example the list is endless. As I said when we remove God we have to replace him with government. And the end game is going to look really bad as this will not work long-term.


Zeb, I would agree that the overall level of Judeo-Christian morality is lower than 50 years ago but there were still plenty of shotgun weddings that occurred as well. My dad is 80 and he reminds me constantly that the "good old days" were often not as good as we are led to believe. Simpler? Probably a better term to use. He lived on a farm with an outhouse and no running water and they raised their own food and slaughtered their own meat. Simpler yes but good might be stretching it.


Ah, yes. As we all know, without the impending threat of eternal hell fire---or the revelation that there is a creator who disapproves of murder, theft and irresponsible sexual activity---ad hoc man made laws are required to keep our depravity in check. It's inconceivable that without the Bible people could understand that some actions ought not be done, or that there are consequences to one's actions. Surely it's because they have not been schooled in the Bible that teenagers engage in irresponsible promiscuity.


I'm not claiming that living conditions were better. However, morally, with few exceptions, it was a utopia compared to today's low standards. It almost doesn't matter which statistic that you want to compare.


Without a strong moral base it's obvious to see what is happening not just here in America but around the world. Our moral standards have been driven lower each decade. You can claim that it's not the fact that more people have turned from God, but then you'd have to tell me why it is as it is. SO..I'm waiting.


If I ever decide to do so you'll be my first stop for expert input. Nothing you've said, even assuming its overall accuracy and representation which is not a given, addresses the point that America was in the ascendancy for 150 years precisely because of what Washington was talking about and is now on the undeniable decline since the 60's when the formal break was made.

Things never change. People seize upon unholy anti Christian abuses committed by somebody claiming divine authority and run wildly amuck slinging artificial mud everywhere. I promise you neither Washington nor I (nor the bible) endorse the legitimately bad things you cite.


Really? Just which statistics do you want to compare? Percentage of people who owned slaved? Level of institutional terrorism? Equality among people? Murder rate? Theft rate? Rate of adultery? Number of homosexuals?

I don't need an explanation for why our moral standards have been drive lower each decade,'' first because I don't think there's a linear measure of our moral standards and second because I think along most dimensions our moral standards have increased. (They have drastically increased from, say, 200 years ago.) Today we no longer accept slavery. Today we are better about giving people equal rights. Today there is more freedom of speech. Today we are not in a constant state of war. Is there more sexual promiscuity today? Sure. I don't think that's bad. I certainly wouldn't trade emancipation and Women's rights for less sexual promiscuity. Is there more theft and violent crime today? I doubt the level is statically significant, if there is.

So, I've laid out the metrics against which I judge our society today to be more moral than your golden age of the pilgrims or the Victorian era or the early twentieth century---which ever you prefer. Just which metrics are you using?


Nothing you said in what I quoted was relevant to that point either. What you gave was a tangential and sweeping jab at modern liberal ideals. I replied in kind.


You act as if the things I cite were perpetrated by fringe groups. In most of the cases I listed, the somebody claiming divine authority'' happened to be respected leaders of various churches and/or the christian community at at large. As for specific examples, Washington held slaves. I would say owning slaves is a fairly straightforward endorsement of the legitimacy of slavery. The Bible certainly endorses slavery outright and only indirectly speaks against it. As for Women's rights, the Bible is even worse.

Besides, as you yourself would probably claim, the point isn't what a certain ideology holds---liberals and progressives certainly have good intentions and nice sounding rhetoric---but what it leads too. All I was doing was pointing to the fruits of christian ideology, just as you were (presumably) pointing to the fruits of liberal and progressive ideology.


That is just nonsense, how far do you wanna go back, witch burnings, the KKK or hillybillies impregnating their sisters?

Cross burnings, Jim Crow laws, slavery, gay bashing, war in the Phillipines, prohibition, shotgun weddings, genocide, my, my, my, the good ole days.


Here's the real point: villainizing those who hold different political, religious and moral views isn't looked nicely upon. Claiming, in sweeping and general terms, that modern western society is a moral waste land while neglecting the fruits of progressivism and ignoring the flaws of the judeo-christian tradition isn't a good way to start a dialog and perpetuates falsehoods.