Thai Boxing, Judo, and 5/3/1

Muay Thai - 1 hour

1 round (3 minutes) of jump rope

1 round (3 minutes) of shadow boxing

1 round (3 minutes) of jump rope

1 round (3 minutes) of shadow boxing

5 rounds holding thai pads

5 rounds on thai pads

  • 1 round of pad holder throwing right low kick-check kick-counter with left middle kick and pad holder throwing left low kick-check kick-counter with right middle kick
  • 1 round of pad holder throwing right low kick-check kick-counter with right middle kick and pad holder throwing left low kick-check kick-counter with left middle kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right middle kick-check right low kick-jab
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right low kick-defend against right middle kick by grabbing the bottom of the right foot, bringing it in and sweeping the pad holders left leg with my left leg
  • 1 round of jab-cross-left uppercut-right middle kick-evade right low kick-jab

Finisher:

  • 1 round of training partner throwing jab-counter with right middle kick and training partner throwing cross-counter with left middle kick and vice versa

Yoga - 1 hour

  • Very good yoga class. It helped to open up my hips and loosen up the back

Sento,

Thanks for the comment regarding conditioning.

I read your comment a few days ago and I’ve had a couple of days to shadow box. I’ve been moving more and thinking about possible counters from my opponent. Your post is filled with knowledge that I will continue to refer to in order to dissect it and apply it in my training. There is a lot of useful information here.

I like what you mention about thinking a lot about these counters especially after throwing the jab-cross. I will employ those possible opponent reactions into my shadow boxing and heavy bag work. As far as moving back, I really need to stop doing it. When I spar again this will be one of my top priorities as well as going kick for kick and punch for punch and always disrupting my sparring partners’ rhythm (not giving him a time to set up). Another top priority during my next sparring session is to add these counters you just mentioned.

I’ve never really thought about where I want to end up after throwing the straight right, but, it makes a ton of sense from a positioning standpoint. It would put me in a better defensive and offensive position if I start thinking like this.

The first counter you just described sounds very effective. I will start practicing this counter and movement into my shadow boxing and put it into play when I spar again. Just thinking about it sounds like it will bring me a lot of advantages.

These are all excellent variations/counters that I will start playing with in my shadow boxing, heavy bag, and sparring. I’m going to be very methodical in my shadow boxing when doing these combinations. I can’t wait to really put them into play. Thanks again Sento. As always, your thoughtful and insightful posts are not only welcomed but also appreciated.

Thai Boxing - 1 hour

10 minutes of running (using 3lb dumbbells in each hand) mixed in with:

  • 10 pushups
  • 15 pushups
  • 20 pushups
  • 50 pushups

1 round (4 minutes) of jab-cross using 3lb dumbbells in each hand

1 round (4 minutes) of alternating knees using 3lb dumbbells in each hand

  • left teep-right knee
  • right teep-left knee

20 pushups immediately after alternating knees

200 punches using 3lb dumbbells in each hand, immediately after 50 pushups

Thai Heavy Bag

  • 50 left teeps and 50 right teeps using 3lb dumbbells in each hand
  • 100 alternating teeps using 3lb dumbbells in each hand
  • 50 alternating knees
  • 20 left middle kicks and 20 right middle kicks using 3lb dumbbells in each hand

2 minutes of shadow boxing

8 rounds (2 minutes each round, 30 second rest between rounds) of station training

  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-left low kick on the thai heavy bag
  • 1 round of alternating teeps on the thai heavy bag
  • 1 round of elbows and knees on the thai heavy bag
  • 1 round of left knee-right knee on the thai heavy bag
  • 1 round of shadow boxing
  • 1 round of boxing only on the uppercut bag
  • 1 round of speed punches on the uppercut bag
  • 1 round of jab-cross-jab-cross-left middle kick-left middle kick-right middle kick-right middle kick on the thai heavy bag

2 minutes of freestyle combinations on the thai heavy bag

2 minutes of conditioning

  • 30 seconds of barbell punches
  • 30 seconds of russian twist using medicine ball
  • 30 seconds of dumbbell curl into a dumbbell shoulder press
  • 30 seconds of alternating steps using aerobics stepper

Finisher (no rest between knees, running, and situps):

  • 100 alternating knees
  • 2 minutes of fast paced running
  • 100 situps
  • I was throwing my left middle kick and right middle kick more explosively and with more power. Maybe yesterday’s yoga session helped my kicks today since yesterday’s yoga opened up my hips and loosened up the lower back

  • My conditioning was very good today. I still had a lot more energy to do more

  • I added in some of the combinations that Sento recommended into my shadow boxing since it helps me think about possible counters from my opponent and counters, too

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Sento,

Thanks for the comment regarding conditioning.

I read your comment a few days ago and I’ve had a couple of days to shadow box. I’ve been moving more and thinking about possible counters from my opponent. Your post is filled with knowledge that I will continue to refer to in order to dissect it and apply it in my training. There is a lot of useful information here.

I like what you mention about thinking a lot about these counters especially after throwing the jab-cross. I will employ those possible opponent reactions into my shadow boxing and heavy bag work. As far as moving back, I really need to stop doing it. When I spar again this will be one of my top priorities as well as going kick for kick and punch for punch and always disrupting my sparring partners’ rhythm (not giving him a time to set up). Another top priority during my next sparring session is to add these counters you just mentioned.

I’ve never really thought about where I want to end up after throwing the straight right, but, it makes a ton of sense from a positioning standpoint. It would put me in a better defensive and offensive position if I start thinking like this.

The first counter you just described sounds very effective. I will start practicing this counter and movement into my shadow boxing and put it into play when I spar again. Just thinking about it sounds like it will bring me a lot of advantages.

These are all excellent variations/counters that I will start playing with in my shadow boxing, heavy bag, and sparring. I’m going to be very methodical in my shadow boxing when doing these combinations. I can’t wait to really put them into play. Thanks again Sento. As always, your thoughtful and insightful posts are not only welcomed but also appreciated. [/quote]

You’re welcome. Glad to be of help. :slight_smile:

All of those counters and combinations are based on a few key principles, which will hopefully help you to understand they “why’s” as well as the “what” to do.

  1. “Always neutralize your opponent’s position before you attack.” -GM Joe Lewis
    1b) “Always attack from a position of strength to a position of weakness.”

This is one of the cardinal rules of combat. If two opponents (could be individuals, groups, or even armies) meet on even ground, the vast majority of time the better equipped/physically superior/skilled/experienced opponent will prevail. But, an inferior opponent can overcome a superior one given superior positioning. This is the basis from everything from the ancient Battle of Thermopylae, to modern Jiu-Jitsu positions on the ground. This is also equally important as you are recovering or attempting to disengage as that is one of the primary times you are open to being countered.

  1. A moving target is more difficult to hit than a stationary one.

Learning how to defend using the arms and legs to parry, block, shield/cover, cuff, etc… is an important part of learning how to fight. But, generally those types of defense are only necessary if your opponent has seized the positional and timing advantage. They also occupy your limbs/offensive tools which means that you temporarily cannot use them to inflict damage (or take some damage yourself). By moving your target out of harm’s way/controlling the positional relationship between you and your opponent you render their counters ineffective (or at least seriously limit their options) while retaining the use of all your offensive tools in the process and take no damage.

Now of course this is an ideal scenario, which is why learning to use “blocking” (by which I am including all defensive movements where the arms or legs are used to defend incoming attacks) is important. But if blocking is all you ever rely on, then you are missing out on some other very effective means of defense.

  1. “The gaps in your offense create the holes in your defense.” -GM Joe Lewis

Already discussed this above, so won’t go further into it.

  1. The only time your opponent’s advantages or offensive skills are a threat to you is when they are “set”.

This is sort of a combination of all the above mentioned principles. If you can control the distance, angulation, force your opponent to deal with your attacks, or keep them mentally and physically off balance, then you can neutralize any advantage that they might have over you and take away their ability to utilize their offensive skills effectively against you.

All of the combinations you were practicing in that earlier post I responded to were essentially “trading”. You don’t want to trade, you want it to be your turn all the time. Trading means the physically superior fighter will usually win; don’t fight like that, use your mind to win, not your body. Yes, you still want to be in the best shape you can, develop your mental and physical toughness, and condition yourself physically, emotionally, and mentally to be the tougher fighter, but you want to approach the fight like your opponent is always the physically superior fighter, so you outsmart and out maneuver them to victory; you win because you’re better, not because you’re tougher. Then you can always switch back and turn on the toughness if need be or to keep them even further off balance (break your rhythm).

Hope this all makes sense and I didn’t further confuse you. :slight_smile:

  • I’m going to train at work today (strength, heavy bag, and shadow boxing). Here is what I have planned:

Deadlifts

  • 135 x 3
  • 225 x 3
  • 315 x 1
  • 375 x 1

Weighted Chin-ups

  • 45 x 5
  • 45 x 5
  • 45 x 5

Neck Harness

  • 90 x 100
  • 90 x 100
  • 90 x 100

Heavy Bag (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 20 left middle kicks and 20 right middle kicks
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-jab-cross-left middle kick-left middle kick-right middle kick-right middle kick
  • 1 round of jab-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of freestyle combinations such as: left hook to the liver-right high kick and left hook-left uppercut and right hook-right uppercut

Shadow Boxing (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-left hook to the head-trap left arm with right hand-right high kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right uppercut-left hook to the head-trap left hand-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-jab-left middle kick to the liver
  • 1 round of kick for kick (check kick-middle kick-high kick)

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

  • I’m going to train at work today (strength, heavy bag, and shadow boxing). Here is what I have planned:

Strength Training

  • Trap Bar Deadlifts ? max set x 1-3
  • Weighted Chin-ups ? 3 x 1-3
  • Neck Harness - 3 x 100

Heavy Bag (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 20 left middle kicks and 20 right middle kicks
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-jab-cross-left middle kick-left middle kick-right middle kick-right middle kick
  • 1 round of jab-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of freestyle combinations such as: left hook to the liver-right high kick and left hook-left uppercut and right hook-right uppercut

Shadow Boxing (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-left hook to the head-trap left arm with right hand-right high kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right uppercut-left hook to the head-trap left hand-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-jab-left middle kick to the liver
  • 1 round of kick for kick (check kick-middle kick-high kick)[/quote]

Nice. Just, if you pivot off to the right and right cross, left hook to the solar plexus, think what reaction your opponent is likely to have. We as humans tend to retract and “go to the pain” with our hands. This will mean your opponent’s arms will most likely drop and go to their center as their torso collapses. This will make landing a right uppercut difficult (not impossible, but difficult). If you throw the left hook low I would come back with the right cross again (which could be somewhat of an overhand, or at least a right 45 thrown over the opponent’s left elbow crease). If you want to land the right uppercut throw the left hook high as this will bring their arms up and possible head back, this opening up your path for the uppercut to come up under the opponent’s left arm to their chin. Oftentimes I will throw the uppercut like I am trying to hit the opponent’s chest and let it slide up the chest to the chin.

Hope this helps.

Thai Boxing - 1 hour and 15 minutes

10 minutes of running

50 left knees and 50 right knees immediately after running

100 alternating knees immediately after 50 right knees

1 round (4 minutes) of shadow boxing

5 rounds (4 minutes each round) of holding thai pads

5 rounds (4 minutes each round, 20 pushups during 30 second rest) on thai pads

  • 1 round of 10 left middle kicks and 10 right middle kicks, 15 left middle kicks and 15 right middle kicks, 20 left middle kicks and 20 right middle kicks, and left middle kick-left middle kick and right middle kick-right middle kick
  • 1 round of jab-right middle kick, doubled up on the right middle kick during final minute of the round and non-stop right middle kicks during final 30 seconds of the round
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right middle kick, doubled up on the right middle kick during final minute of the round and non-stop right middle kicks during final 30 seconds of the round
  • 1 round of jab-cross-left middle kick, doubled up on the left middle kick during final minute of the round and non-stop left middle kicks during final 30 seconds of the round
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right middle kick and cross-hook-cross-left middle kick, non-stop right middle kick-right middle kick and left middle kick-left middle kick during final 30 seconds of the round

3 rounds (4 minutes each round) holding mitts

3 rounds (4 minutes each round, 20 pushups during 30 second rest) on mitts

  • 1 round of 100 punches, jab-cross-cross, fast jab-cross during final 30 seconds of the round
  • 1 round of 100 punches, jab-cross-hook, fast jab-cross during final 30 seconds of the round
  • 1 round of 100 punches, jab-cross-hook-cross-hook-cross, fast jab-cross during final 30 seconds of the round

Finisher

  • 2 minutes of running (sprints during final 30 seconds)
  • 100 crunches
  • I felt very flat and my endurance wasn’t very good today. I ate too much before going to train and I only had 5 hours of sleep. I’m sure both of these thing contributed to my performance

  • I need to rotate my hips more when throwing my middle kicks

  • I have to kick higher

  • I should be pointing my toes down when throwing my kicks

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Sento,

Thanks for the comment regarding conditioning.

I read your comment a few days ago and I’ve had a couple of days to shadow box. I’ve been moving more and thinking about possible counters from my opponent. Your post is filled with knowledge that I will continue to refer to in order to dissect it and apply it in my training. There is a lot of useful information here.

I like what you mention about thinking a lot about these counters especially after throwing the jab-cross. I will employ those possible opponent reactions into my shadow boxing and heavy bag work. As far as moving back, I really need to stop doing it. When I spar again this will be one of my top priorities as well as going kick for kick and punch for punch and always disrupting my sparring partners’ rhythm (not giving him a time to set up). Another top priority during my next sparring session is to add these counters you just mentioned.

I’ve never really thought about where I want to end up after throwing the straight right, but, it makes a ton of sense from a positioning standpoint. It would put me in a better defensive and offensive position if I start thinking like this.

The first counter you just described sounds very effective. I will start practicing this counter and movement into my shadow boxing and put it into play when I spar again. Just thinking about it sounds like it will bring me a lot of advantages.

These are all excellent variations/counters that I will start playing with in my shadow boxing, heavy bag, and sparring. I’m going to be very methodical in my shadow boxing when doing these combinations. I can’t wait to really put them into play. Thanks again Sento. As always, your thoughtful and insightful posts are not only welcomed but also appreciated. [/quote]

You’re welcome. Glad to be of help. :slight_smile:

All of those counters and combinations are based on a few key principles, which will hopefully help you to understand they “why’s” as well as the “what” to do.

  1. “Always neutralize your opponent’s position before you attack.” -GM Joe Lewis
    1b) “Always attack from a position of strength to a position of weakness.”

This is one of the cardinal rules of combat. If two opponents (could be individuals, groups, or even armies) meet on even ground, the vast majority of time the better equipped/physically superior/skilled/experienced opponent will prevail. But, an inferior opponent can overcome a superior one given superior positioning. This is the basis from everything from the ancient Battle of Thermopylae, to modern Jiu-Jitsu positions on the ground. This is also equally important as you are recovering or attempting to disengage as that is one of the primary times you are open to being countered.

  1. A moving target is more difficult to hit than a stationary one.

Learning how to defend using the arms and legs to parry, block, shield/cover, cuff, etc… is an important part of learning how to fight. But, generally those types of defense are only necessary if your opponent has seized the positional and timing advantage. They also occupy your limbs/offensive tools which means that you temporarily cannot use them to inflict damage (or take some damage yourself). By moving your target out of harm’s way/controlling the positional relationship between you and your opponent you render their counters ineffective (or at least seriously limit their options) while retaining the use of all your offensive tools in the process and take no damage.

Now of course this is an ideal scenario, which is why learning to use “blocking” (by which I am including all defensive movements where the arms or legs are used to defend incoming attacks) is important. But if blocking is all you ever rely on, then you are missing out on some other very effective means of defense.

  1. “The gaps in your offense create the holes in your defense.” -GM Joe Lewis

Already discussed this above, so won’t go further into it.

  1. The only time your opponent’s advantages or offensive skills are a threat to you is when they are “set”.

This is sort of a combination of all the above mentioned principles. If you can control the distance, angulation, force your opponent to deal with your attacks, or keep them mentally and physically off balance, then you can neutralize any advantage that they might have over you and take away their ability to utilize their offensive skills effectively against you.

All of the combinations you were practicing in that earlier post I responded to were essentially “trading”. You don’t want to trade, you want it to be your turn all the time. Trading means the physically superior fighter will usually win; don’t fight like that, use your mind to win, not your body. Yes, you still want to be in the best shape you can, develop your mental and physical toughness, and condition yourself physically, emotionally, and mentally to be the tougher fighter, but you want to approach the fight like your opponent is always the physically superior fighter, so you outsmart and out maneuver them to victory; you win because you’re better, not because you’re tougher. Then you can always switch back and turn on the toughness if need be or to keep them even further off balance (break your rhythm).

Hope this all makes sense and I didn’t further confuse you. :-)[/quote]

Sento, you have an immense wealth of knowledge and every time you post on my thread, I learn something new and I spend time dissecting it. The intelligence behind your posts are truly remarkable.

I can’t wait to spar again and focus on a lot of the principles you mentioned. I was watching a video yesterday called “Boxing and Bruce Lee and the 5 ways of attack.” All of the principles of attack in the video are in unison with what you’ve mentioned.

I think this will drastically improve my sparring in the sense that I am someone who likes to study things thoroughly and think a lot about certain topics (in this case principles of combat). The idea of neutralizing my opponent’s position before my attack and attacking from a position of strength is invaluable skill which will improve my game tenfold.

This all speaks to the facts of never being in a position to get hit. I never really knew that as you mentioned: “learning how to defend using the arms and legs to parry, block, shield/cover, cuff, etc… is an important part of learning how to fight. But, generally those types of defense are only necessary if your opponent has seized the positional and timing advantage. They also occupy your limbs/offensive tools which mean that you temporarily cannot use them to inflict damage (or take some damage yourself).” This makes a lot of sense since I do find that parrying and blocking slow my offensive production. I have a strong idea in mind about what you are saying in terms of positioning. For instance, when throwing the jab-cross, I should pivot and or move to a position (possibly to my right side (which would be opponents left side)) in which I can hit and not get hit. Basically I should throw my combinations and move into another position which places me at an advantage. If I throw a jab-cross and stay there, then I am being stationary. I definitely need to employ the principle of moving after throwing since I haven’t done that in sparring yet.

One of the things that I have done (but infrequently) is breaking my opponent’s rhythm by not giving them a chance to reset. I really like when you say, “You want it to be your turn all the time.”

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

  • I’m going to train at work today (strength, heavy bag, and shadow boxing). Here is what I have planned:

Strength Training

  • Trap Bar Deadlifts - max set x 1-3
  • Weighted Chin-ups - 3 x 1-3
  • Neck Harness - 3 x 100

Heavy Bag (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 20 left middle kicks and 20 right middle kicks
  • 1 round of jab-cross-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-jab-cross-left middle kick-left middle kick-right middle kick-right middle kick
  • 1 round of jab-hook-right low kick
  • 1 round of freestyle combinations such as: left hook to the liver-right high kick and left hook-left uppercut and right hook-right uppercut

Shadow Boxing (3 minutes each round, no rest between rounds)

  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-left hook to the head-trap left arm with right hand-right high kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-pivot-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right uppercut-left hook to the head-trap left hand-right low kick
  • 1 round of jab-cross-left hook to the solar plexus-right to the head-jab-left middle kick to the liver
  • 1 round of kick for kick (check kick-middle kick-high kick)[/quote]

Nice. Just, if you pivot off to the right and right cross, left hook to the solar plexus, think what reaction your opponent is likely to have. We as humans tend to retract and “go to the pain” with our hands. This will mean your opponent’s arms will most likely drop and go to their center as their torso collapses. This will make landing a right uppercut difficult (not impossible, but difficult). If you throw the left hook low I would come back with the right cross again (which could be somewhat of an overhand, or at least a right 45 thrown over the opponent’s left elbow crease). If you want to land the right uppercut throw the left hook high as this will bring their arms up and possible head back, this opening up your path for the uppercut to come up under the opponent’s left arm to their chin. Oftentimes I will throw the uppercut like I am trying to hit the opponent’s chest and let it slide up the chest to the chin.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

Thanks, Sento, that’s very helpful. I really like throwing the uppercut because a lot of people do not expect it and therefore do not defend against it.

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

Sento, you have an immense wealth of knowledge and every time you post on my thread, I learn something new and I spend time dissecting it. The intelligence behind your posts are truly remarkable.

I can’t wait to spar again and focus on a lot of the principles you mentioned. I was watching a video yesterday called “Boxing and Bruce Lee and the 5 ways of attack.” All of the principles of attack in the video are in unison with what you’ve mentioned.

I think this will drastically improve my sparring in the sense that I am someone who likes to study things thoroughly and think a lot about certain topics (in this case principles of combat). The idea of neutralizing my opponent’s position before my attack and attacking from a position of strength is invaluable skill which will improve my game tenfold.

[/quote]

Glad to be of help. I’ve been lucky enough to have had the chance to learn from literal “Giants” in the Martial Arts World (who have learned from and stood on the shoulders of other “Giants”), and must give full credit to them for my knowledge base and teaching/coaching abilities.

That is a great video, and yes, as Joe Lewis logged more private training time with Bruce Lee than anyone else other than Ted Wong, took Lee’s concepts and principles into the ring and helped him to refine them and develop them (and prove their effectiveness) and had the good fortune of living another 40 years longer than Bruce in which he continued to refine and develop them and my primary instructors have been training with Joe since they were 14 (now in their mid 40’s) there is a very strong Bruce Lee/JKD/JLFS influence in what I do (actually was planning on testing for my JLFS Black Belt last November but unfortunately got hurt, and this year looks like it’s not going to be the year either as I’ve got lots of expensive family obligations and won’t be able to afford it). I also had the privilege of training with GM Lewis on several occasions, hanging out with him outside of some seminars (he was a blast to be around, always joking around and so incredibly knowledgeable), training with some of his top Black Belts (and hanging around with them as well), so again, I am incredibly lucky.

Anyhow, enough about me. Again, glad that I can help. If you want to know more about GM Lewis check out his Joe Lewis Fighting Systems as well as Integrated Combative Arts Training (iCAT) a joint venture between GM Lewis, my primary instructor Shihan Walt Lysak Jr. and Grandmaster Richard Ryan.

Edited to separate my response into two shorter and easier to read ones as I tend to be wordy. :slight_smile:

Thanks Sento. I’m going to read up on your instructors and the Joe Lewis Fighting Systems. By the way, I sent you a private message but I’m not sure if it went through since I checked “sent messages” and nothing was there. If it never went through, I’ll just post it on this thread.

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

This all speaks to the facts of never being in a position to get hit. I never really knew that as you mentioned: “learning how to defend using the arms and legs to parry, block, shield/cover, cuff, etc… is an important part of learning how to fight. But, generally those types of defense are only necessary if your opponent has seized the positional and timing advantage. They also occupy your limbs/offensive tools which mean that you temporarily cannot use them to inflict damage (or take some damage yourself).” This makes a lot of sense since I do find that parrying and blocking slow my offensive production. I have a strong idea in mind about what you are saying in terms of positioning. For instance, when throwing the jab-cross, I should pivot and or move to a position (possibly to my right side (which would be opponents left side)) in which I can hit and not get hit. Basically I should throw my combinations and move into another position which places me at an advantage. If I throw a jab-cross and stay there, then I am being stationary. I definitely need to employ the principle of moving after throwing since I haven’t done that in sparring yet.

One of the things that I have done (but infrequently) is breaking my opponent’s rhythm by not giving them a chance to reset. I really like when you say, “You want it to be your turn all the time.”[/quote]

Yes, absolutely. This is such a simple concept and principle in theory, yet I see people violating it all the time, even professional fighters. This is something that IMO should be stressed (along with always returning to a tight guard and never allowing your hands to drop, unless perhaps you are reaching down to grab a leg for a takedown, performing a defensive action, or performing a fake, when throwing your strikes) from day 1 when someone is learning how to fight. If you have to relearn it later on it becomes much more difficult as your bad habit of just “stopping” after your throw your combinations has already been developed.

I am also a big fan of using strikes and/or stabilizing/destabilizing techniques as your reposition yourself after your combinations as this forces the opponent to have to deal with them and occupies that space in time which makes it even more difficult for the opponent to hit you back. Even if you want to clear straight back it can be done effectively if you use “firepower” on the way out.

For instance, one of my favorite ways to clear straight back (I will also do it if I want to clear back to my left, either against a lefty, or just to mix things up and break my rhythm of clearing off to the right as most righties tend to do against other righties) I learned from Grandmaster Bill Wallace (but it still holds true to the same principle) is to finish the combination with a long distance left hook to the head and allow it to turn you into a left lead Side Fighting Stance. The left hook doesn’t necessarily have to land, either, though it certainly can, but can also be used to “turn the opponent”, clear/deflect or trap their right hand, or just cause their attention to be drawn up towards their head and generally cause their elbows to raise even if only slightly. Then, I will immediately throw a left side kick to the midsection and actually use it to push me back out of range (sometimes knocking them back, sometimes pushing me back, and sometimes both).

Due to the reach of the side kick, the fact that I am turned sideways thus have no real targets for my opponent to hit, the fact that the side kick creates a poling/wedging effect so even if they try to chase me the kick will at best push me backwards out of harm’s way, the fact that the kick is thrown between the opponent’s usual “mid gate” and “lower gate” zones and thus very difficult to defend, and the fact that it is a very difficult kick to catch if thrown correctly this is IMO one of if not the single most effective way of clearing straight backwards if you wish to do so. Yes, you can clear straight back with a jab too and I do that also, but it’s easier for your opponent to follow you and potentially catch you when you do so on a jab.

I know side kicks aren’t used much (if at all) in Muay Thai, but they are in fact awesome kicks to learn, among the most powerful types of kicks, and if you learn how to use them properly (and develop the hip mobility to execute them, even if it’s just to waist height) one of the most versatile, safe, and effective kicks IMO. And again, this is just an example to illustrate a principle, you can adjust it or modify it to fit your individual arsenal, body type, attributes, preferences, and opponent as need be.

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Thanks Sento. I’m going to read up on your instructors and the Joe Lewis Fighting Systems. By the way, I sent you a private message but I’m not sure if it went through since I checked “sent messages” and nothing was there. If it never went through, I’ll just post it on this thread.[/quote]

I haven’t been able to get or send private messages in a while (except friend requests, those still come through), so feel free to just post it here and I’ll respond to it. :slight_smile:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Thanks Sento. I’m going to read up on your instructors and the Joe Lewis Fighting Systems. By the way, I sent you a private message but I’m not sure if it went through since I checked “sent messages” and nothing was there. If it never went through, I’ll just post it on this thread.[/quote]

I haven’t been able to get or send private messages in a while (except friend requests, those still come through), so feel free to just post it here and I’ll respond to it. :-)[/quote]

I am curious about your thoughts on a topic that I’ve been thinking about. As you know, I train Judo at a dojo and Muay Thai at two different gyms. One of the Muay Thai gyms offers BJJ and Wrestling. I’ve trained a little BJJ and attended approximately 5 Wrestling classes. My intent is to leave the gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, and Wrestling when my work schedule changes later this year or early next year. When I put “Thai Boxing” on the thread, that is the gym I intend to train at for a long time along with the Judo dojo. Essentially, I will only train Thai Boxing and Judo in the future.

However, would you recommend throwing in some Wrestling classes to help with single and double leg takedown defense? The number one reason I train is to help me out in the streets at work. In the near future, I’d like to compete in Thai Boxing and then compete in Judo tournaments.

Ideally, I wish I could train 4 days of Thai Boxing, 4 days of Judo, and 2 days of Wrestling but with the unpredictability of work and overtime, this is never the case. Currently, I’m probably averaging about 2 days of Thai Boxing and 1-2 days of Judo.

Do you think I should just get situated with Judo as my grappling base as opposed to adding in Wrestling to the mix? Just curious about your thoughts. Feel free to ask me any questions.

I forgot to mention that I also want to work as a tactics instructor at the academy within the next 2 years.

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Thanks Sento. I’m going to read up on your instructors and the Joe Lewis Fighting Systems. By the way, I sent you a private message but I’m not sure if it went through since I checked “sent messages” and nothing was there. If it never went through, I’ll just post it on this thread.[/quote]

I haven’t been able to get or send private messages in a while (except friend requests, those still come through), so feel free to just post it here and I’ll respond to it. :-)[/quote]

I am curious about your thoughts on a topic that I’ve been thinking about. As you know, I train Judo at a dojo and Muay Thai at two different gyms. One of the Muay Thai gyms offers BJJ and Wrestling. I’ve trained a little BJJ and attended approximately 5 Wrestling classes. My intent is to leave the gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, and Wrestling when my work schedule changes later this year or early next year. When I put “Thai Boxing” on the thread, that is the gym I intend to train at for a long time along with the Judo dojo. Essentially, I will only train Thai Boxing and Judo in the future.

However, would you recommend throwing in some Wrestling classes to help with single and double leg takedown defense? The number one reason I train is to help me out in the streets at work. In the near future, I’d like to compete in Thai Boxing and then compete in Judo tournaments.

Ideally, I wish I could train 4 days of Thai Boxing, 4 days of Judo, and 2 days of Wrestling but with the unpredictability of work and overtime, this is never the case. Currently, I’m probably averaging about 2 days of Thai Boxing and 1-2 days of Judo.

Do you think I should just get situated with Judo as my grappling base as opposed to adding in Wrestling to the mix? Just curious about your thoughts. Feel free to ask me any questions.

I forgot to mention that I also want to work as a tactics instructor at the academy within the next 2 years.
[/quote]

Single/double leg take downs as well as pickups (te guruma, kata guruma) used to be legal and were banned very recently. Judo veterans would still know a lot about takedown defenses. They might not talk about it during classes if the club is really geared towards tournaments under USJF rules, but you could ask them about it anyway. Although wrestling classes would cover this more comprehensively

I guess that would depend on a few things:

  1. Does the Judo place you go to strictly adhere to the new IJF rules (purely competition based judo) and thus completely neglect teaching double and single leg takedowns and defenses, or is it more old school Kodokan Judo which did include grabbing the legs but perhaps not focus on it to the same degree as wrestling does?

  2. Is wrestling a big sport where you live, thus increasing the likelihood of having to deal with a good wrestler in a street altercation?

  3. What type of climate do you live in?

The truth is that most “double legs” in real fights are more football tackles/“high doubles” than they are true “shots” like you see in wrestling matches. Keep in mind that wrestling matches always occur on wrestling mats, which have been specifically designed to absorb force and thus make going to the ground (both as the “takedowner” and “takedownee”) less dangerous and more shall we say pleasant. The modern double leg and single leg takedowns have largely developed within this environmental reality, and work wonderfully within it. But, real environments seldom have padded floors like that and surfaces like concrete, rough gravel, tile, or even wood and carpeted floors are far less forgiving than wrestling mats. If a wrestler tries to shoot on cement like they would shoot on a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu/Judo mat, they are in for a rude and unpleasant awakening (just as Renzo Gracie) as their knee slams down with all of their bodyweight (and maybe yours as well) on it into the ground. In fact, next time you are at wrestling class see who wants to go out and drill shots in the parking lot and my guess is you won’t get any takers (or if there are they will want to wear their knee pads, which again people don’t wear when just walking around in everyday life), let alone asking them who wants to drill shots and allow you to practice your sprawl at the same time.

The difference the environment makes cannot be understated and definitely should not be overlooked. I have seen very good sport grapplers look like amatuers or completely refuse to even participate when we take them out onto the pavement (or gravel, or swamp, etc…) because they are completely unaccustomed to the different environment and the affect that it has. Most of the time people suddenly go into slow motion, very light, and very conservative grappling/groundfighting mode when exposed to realistic environments. Any grappler who is not belligerently drunk, high on drugs, or a complete newbie to fighting on hard surfaces is likely to realize this difference and avoid shooting like they would on a mat. The result is again more of a football tackle or high double leg.

Against this type of takedown your actual best bet is going to be some form of wedging maneuver (Tony Blauer’s Spear and Richard Ryan’s Ram Sheild are excellent examples that are both “Flinch extension” tactics) which seeks to prevent the opponent from making body to body contact with you, potentially damage the opponent on their entry, and maintain your ability to strike or attack their vital targets. That’s not to say that practicing Wrestling takedown defenses isn’t an important training tool because it will teach you how to position your body to make it hard to take you down, as well as give you options in case the opponent does get past your primary defensive measures (though again, even then the primary benefit is the understanding of proper body positioning not necessarily the specific “techniques”). But in real fights you do not want to make it a wrestling match, nor allow your opponent to make it a wrestling match.

Clothing also plays an important role when determining which grappling arts make the most sense to utilize. If you live in a predominantly hot climate where people walk around in tank tops or shirtless, then wrestling grips and tie ups (overhooks, underhooks, etc…) are going to translate better in application. If on the other hand you live in a predominantly cold climate where people regularly wear heavy cold weather jackets and pants most of the year, then Judo/Jiu-Jitsu grips are going to serve you well.

Hope this helps.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I guess that would depend on a few things:

  1. Does the Judo place you go to strictly adhere to the new IJF rules (purely competition based judo) and thus completely neglect teaching double and single leg takedowns and defenses, or is it more old school Kodokan Judo which did include grabbing the legs but perhaps not focus on it to the same degree as wrestling does?

  2. Is wrestling a big sport where you live, thus increasing the likelihood of having to deal with a good wrestler in a street altercation?

  3. What type of climate do you live in?

The truth is that most “double legs” in real fights are more football tackles/“high doubles” than they are true “shots” like you see in wrestling matches. Keep in mind that wrestling matches always occur on wrestling mats, which have been specifically designed to absorb force and thus make going to the ground (both as the “takedowner” and “takedownee”) less dangerous and more shall we say pleasant. The modern double leg and single leg takedowns have largely developed within this environmental reality, and work wonderfully within it. But, real environments seldom have padded floors like that and surfaces like concrete, rough gravel, tile, or even wood and carpeted floors are far less forgiving than wrestling mats. If a wrestler tries to shoot on cement like they would shoot on a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu/Judo mat, they are in for a rude and unpleasant awakening (just as Renzo Gracie) as their knee slams down with all of their bodyweight (and maybe yours as well) on it into the ground. In fact, next time you are at wrestling class see who wants to go out and drill shots in the parking lot and my guess is you won’t get any takers (or if there are they will want to wear their knee pads, which again people don’t wear when just walking around in everyday life), let alone asking them who wants to drill shots and allow you to practice your sprawl at the same time.

The difference the environment makes cannot be overstated and definitely should not be overlooked. I have seen very good sport grapplers look like amatuers or completely refuse to even participate when we take them out onto the pavement (or gravel, or swamp, etc…) because they are completely unaccustomed to the different environment and the affect that it has. Most of the time people suddenly go into slow motion, very light, and very conservative grappling/groundfighting mode when exposed to realistic environments. Any grappler who is not belligerently drunk, high on drugs, or a complete newbie to fighting on hard surfaces is likely to realize this difference and avoid shooting like they would on a mat. The result is again more of a football tackle or high double leg.

Against this type of takedown your actual best bet is going to be some form of wedging maneuver (Tony Blauer’s Spear and Richard Ryan’s Ram Sheild are excellent examples that are both “Flinch extension” tactics) which seeks to prevent the opponent from making body to body contact with you, potentially damage the opponent on their entry, and maintain your ability to strike or attack their vital targets. That’s not to say that practicing Wrestling takedown defenses isn’t an important training tool because it will teach you how to position your body to make it hard to take you down, as well as give you options in case the opponent does get past your primary defensive measures (though again, even then the primary benefit is the understanding of proper body positioning not necessarily the specific “techniques”). But in real fights you do not want to make it a wrestling match, nor allow your opponent to make it a wrestling match.

Clothing also plays an important role when determining which grappling arts make the most sense to utilize. If you live in a predominantly hot climate where people walk around in tank tops or shirtless, then wrestling grips and tie ups (overhooks, underhooks, etc…) are going to translate better in application. If on the other hand you live in a predominantly cold climate where people regularly wear heavy cold weather jackets and pants most of the year, then Judo/Jiu-Jitsu grips are going to serve you well.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]fearnloathingnyc wrote:
Thanks Sento. I’m going to read up on your instructors and the Joe Lewis Fighting Systems. By the way, I sent you a private message but I’m not sure if it went through since I checked “sent messages” and nothing was there. If it never went through, I’ll just post it on this thread.[/quote]

I haven’t been able to get or send private messages in a while (except friend requests, those still come through), so feel free to just post it here and I’ll respond to it. :-)[/quote]

I am curious about your thoughts on a topic that I’ve been thinking about. As you know, I train Judo at a dojo and Muay Thai at two different gyms. One of the Muay Thai gyms offers BJJ and Wrestling. I’ve trained a little BJJ and attended approximately 5 Wrestling classes. My intent is to leave the gym that offers Muay Thai, BJJ, and Wrestling when my work schedule changes later this year or early next year. When I put “Thai Boxing” on the thread, that is the gym I intend to train at for a long time along with the Judo dojo. Essentially, I will only train Thai Boxing and Judo in the future.

However, would you recommend throwing in some Wrestling classes to help with single and double leg takedown defense? The number one reason I train is to help me out in the streets at work. In the near future, I’d like to compete in Thai Boxing and then compete in Judo tournaments.

Ideally, I wish I could train 4 days of Thai Boxing, 4 days of Judo, and 2 days of Wrestling but with the unpredictability of work and overtime, this is never the case. Currently, I’m probably averaging about 2 days of Thai Boxing and 1-2 days of Judo.

Do you think I should just get situated with Judo as my grappling base as opposed to adding in Wrestling to the mix? Just curious about your thoughts. Feel free to ask me any questions.

I forgot to mention that I also want to work as a tactics instructor at the academy within the next 2 years.
[/quote]

Single/double leg take downs as well as pickups (te guruma, kata guruma) used to be legal and were banned very recently. Judo veterans would still know a lot about takedown defenses. They might not talk about it during classes if the club is really geared towards tournaments under USJF rules, but you could ask them about it anyway. Although wrestling classes would cover this more comprehensively[/quote]

I could ask my Sensei since he has over 50+ years of Judo experience, but, the classes are completely geared towards competition.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I guess that would depend on a few things:

  1. Does the Judo place you go to strictly adhere to the new IJF rules (purely competition based judo) and thus completely neglect teaching double and single leg takedowns and defenses, or is it more old school Kodokan Judo which did include grabbing the legs but perhaps not focus on it to the same degree as wrestling does?

  2. Is wrestling a big sport where you live, thus increasing the likelihood of having to deal with a good wrestler in a street altercation?

  3. What type of climate do you live in?

The truth is that most “double legs” in real fights are more football tackles/“high doubles” than they are true “shots” like you see in wrestling matches. Keep in mind that wrestling matches always occur on wrestling mats, which have been specifically designed to absorb force and thus make going to the ground (both as the “takedowner” and “takedownee”) less dangerous and more shall we say pleasant. The modern double leg and single leg takedowns have largely developed within this environmental reality, and work wonderfully within it. But, real environments seldom have padded floors like that and surfaces like concrete, rough gravel, tile, or even wood and carpeted floors are far less forgiving than wrestling mats. If a wrestler tries to shoot on cement like they would shoot on a wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu/Judo mat, they are in for a rude and unpleasant awakening (just as Renzo Gracie) as their knee slams down with all of their bodyweight (and maybe yours as well) on it into the ground. In fact, next time you are at wrestling class see who wants to go out and drill shots in the parking lot and my guess is you won’t get any takers (or if there are they will want to wear their knee pads, which again people don’t wear when just walking around in everyday life), let alone asking them who wants to drill shots and allow you to practice your sprawl at the same time.

The difference the environment makes cannot be understated and definitely should not be overlooked. I have seen very good sport grapplers look like amatuers or completely refuse to even participate when we take them out onto the pavement (or gravel, or swamp, etc…) because they are completely unaccustomed to the different environment and the affect that it has. Most of the time people suddenly go into slow motion, very light, and very conservative grappling/groundfighting mode when exposed to realistic environments. Any grappler who is not belligerently drunk, high on drugs, or a complete newbie to fighting on hard surfaces is likely to realize this difference and avoid shooting like they would on a mat. The result is again more of a football tackle or high double leg.

Against this type of takedown your actual best bet is going to be some form of wedging maneuver (Tony Blauer’s Spear and Richard Ryan’s Ram Sheild are excellent examples that are both “Flinch extension” tactics) which seeks to prevent the opponent from making body to body contact with you, potentially damage the opponent on their entry, and maintain your ability to strike or attack their vital targets. That’s not to say that practicing Wrestling takedown defenses isn’t an important training tool because it will teach you how to position your body to make it hard to take you down, as well as give you options in case the opponent does get past your primary defensive measures (though again, even then the primary benefit is the understanding of proper body positioning not necessarily the specific “techniques”). But in real fights you do not want to make it a wrestling match, nor allow your opponent to make it a wrestling match.

Clothing also plays an important role when determining which grappling arts make the most sense to utilize. If you live in a predominantly hot climate where people walk around in tank tops or shirtless, then wrestling grips and tie ups (overhooks, underhooks, etc…) are going to translate better in application. If on the other hand you live in a predominantly cold climate where people regularly wear heavy cold weather jackets and pants most of the year, then Judo/Jiu-Jitsu grips are going to serve you well.

Hope this helps.[/quote]

  1. Yes, the Judo place adheres to new IJF rules. No single or double legs are taught. My instructor has over 50+ years of Judo experience, so I could ask if he could devote some time to it, but, the classes are geared toward competition Judo.

  2. Wrestling is not a big sport where I live. I live in New York City. I live in New York City; the climate depends on the season, so warm summers and cold winters.

  3. Do you think I should just focus on Judo as my primary grappling art instead of adding in Wrestling to the mix? Just curious since a lot of people are a proponent of getting situated in one discipline first.

Well, I started in a mixed art and my instructors stated their training learning a mix of arts from their father and then went out and studied yet more arts at the same time, so I am not one of those proponents of sticking to just one art (especially just one say grappling or one striking art). Personally I think that misses the recognition of the totality of combat and the underlying principles and methodologies which make things work.

This is a primarily “moves” based understanding and approach to combat, which will always be inferior to a “methods/principles” based approach/understanding. Some of the biggest “Aha!” Moments I’ve had were during weekend long intensive seminars where I had done 2 hours of Wrestling with an Olympic Broze Medalist, 2 hours of Judo with a 4th degree Black Belt in Judo, several hours of Dynamic Combat unarmed stuff with GM Ryan, Several hours of Reality Clinch Fighting with Shihan Lysak, 2 hours of BJJ with a former World Champion BJJ player, several hours of Reality Ground Fighting with Shihan Lysak, 2 hours of Combat Kickboxing with GM Lewis, 2 hours of weapons stuff with GM Ryan, several hours of firearms training, 2 hours of Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu stuff, and a bunch of other stuff thrown in.

We have had everyone from Tony Blauer, to Frank Shamrock, to James Rosenbach, to John Graden, to Dana Abbot, etc…come and teach a huge variety of skills and styles, and I agree that if one was looking at things from a “moves” perspective this would be overwhelming and confusing as heck. But if you approach it from a methods perspective then you start to see how it actually all fits together and that it’s all just variations on the same themes built upon the same underlying principles.

So, go ahead and stick with Judo if that is the most convenient option for you right now. If you pay attention to the methods and principles that make it tick you should be able to apply them or adapt to whatever grappling art you decide to mix in as you go.