Thinking of running the Texas method, however I’m primarily concerned with competing in power lifting so I only care about the big 3 lifts going up. How important if at all is it to incorporate the cleans into the program? Thinking of adding more pulling assistance, does anyone have any advice or experience on this themselves?
Yeah, power cleans don’t make a whole lot of sense for powerlifting. Just do a couple sets of deadlifts for 5s on volume day, 5x5 deadlifts after squatting and benching sounds like too much.
I don’t even think Rip really recommends power cleans. They are a deadlift with enough speed and light enough weight for momentum to carry the bar to your shoulders than anything else (high hip power clean is what I think he calls them).
There’s not to many powerlifting focussed programs with the clean as a serious go to exercise. That should be a good guide. I’d go with a stiff leg deadlift in it’s place to stay as true as possible.
That’s actually a very good idea, try doing those on the volume day.
What are your numbers?
Not make or break either way but I say keep them in -great for building an overall base of athleticism and power generation. Not bad for helping add a bit of muscle on the frame either
He recommends them and they’re part of the program…
Feel like my squat is my weakest lift and deadlift my strongest. I’m able to perform cleans correctly but I just feel like from a recovery standpoint they are too taxing
You need to read my entire post.
Nice, solid numbers. Ok yeah then fine, drop them. -Just checking in case was newb with 2 plate pull etc
Power Clean For Powerlifters
Power Cleans are a very effective training movement for Conventional Deadlifters.
That because the sticking point for the majority of Conventional Deadlifters in in the knee area, right below or just above the knees.
The more momentum you can generate going into you sticking point, the greater you chances of finishing the lift.
One of the keys in generating more momentum is…
The Development of Power
Power = Strength X Speed.
Power is the grease that allowa you to slide through your sticking point.
The more Power you can generate prior to hitting your sticking point, the greater your chances of completing the lift.
The Westside Powerlifting Protocol
This method is proven to work. It incorporates Limit Strength Training with what is incorrectly reference as “Speed Training”, it is actually Power Training.
Defining Power Training
Moderate load of 48-62% of 1 Repetition Max in the Powerlifts develop Power. However, not to the same extent as Olympic movements.
Defining Speed Training
Load of 10 - 40% of 1 Repetition Max develop Speed.
Power Output Measurements
The power output of clean pulls is 2.85 time greater than a deadlift. Second pulls are even higher with power outputs 4.38 times larger than deadlifts. Garhammer’s research showed that even when dropping the training poundage down to lower percentages for Olympic pulls and deadlifts, outputs for Olympic pulls were still almost twice as great."
The Second Pull in any type of Olympic Pull is where the greatest power output is obtained and developed.
Research (Dr John Garhammer) demonstrated the following power outputs…
During Entire Snatch or Clean Pull Movements:
34.3 w/kg Men
21.8 w/kg Women
52.6 w/kg Men
39.2 w/kg Women
Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men"
Source: The No Deadlift Program to Improve Your Deadlift, [https://www.strength-oldschool.com/blogs/news/the-no-deadlift-program-to-improve-your-deadlift]
The Take Home Message
“Speed Work” (Power Training) with the Traditional Exercises like the Squat, Bench Press and Deadlift increase Power.
However, NOT to the same extent as Olympic movements; “power output of clean pulls is 2.85 time greater than a deadlift.”
Other Deadlift Power Training Exercises
- Trap Bar Deadlift Jumps.
Research shows that Trap Bar Deadlift Jumps rivals the Power Output of Olympic movements.
One of the benefits of Trap Bar Deadlifts is the simplicity of the movement, there is virtually no learning curve compared to the more complex technique required for Olympic movements.
Secondly, Power Output can be trained with bands.
Band Resisted Trap Bar Deadlift (Speed pulls, low handles)
This video demonstrate the movement. However, not much Power Output is generated by this individual. The bar is not moving fast enough because the load is too heavy.
- Heavy Kettlebell Swings
Heavy meaning using a Kettlebell load that is close to your body weight. Thus, if you weight 200 lbs, you need to preform the Kettlebell Swing with a Kettlebell that is around 200 lbs.
Heavy Kettlebell Swing develop a lot of Power Development.
Since heavy Kettlebells are hard to find and expensive, a great alternative is the…
Hungarian Core Blaster
What you need…
$20 worth of pipe from Lowes or Home Depot.
Standard 1 inch diameter Weight Plates.
Are there any high level powerlifters that use power cleans in training? I know that Bill Starr was a fan of them and credits them with building his deadlift without actually deadlifting, but that’s one guy and you could probably find many more who pull more than him that have never done a power clean.
Personally, I like power cleans and I think they are a fun exercise. I used to do power clean & press regularly before I got into powerlifting. I just don’t think that power cleans do much for building the deadlift, and as you have shown, the peak force production is at the second pull which doesn’t really translate to increase DL performance as the lift is already finished UNLESS your back is rounded. And if you deadlift with a rounded back (whether upper, lower, or both) you won’t get much improvement to your lockout from a properly performed power clean because your back should definitely not be rounded. It’s like doing rack pulls with a neutral spine when you pull rounded from the floor, it doesn’t correspond to the actual position that you will find yourself in at that point in the lift.
[quote=“chris_ottawa, post:11, topic:231776”]
Are there any high level powerlifters that use power cleans in training? I know that Bill Starr was a fan of them and credits them with building his deadlift without actually deadlifting, but that’s one guy and you could probably find many more who pull more than him that have never done a power clean.[/quote]
I provided you with the “No Deadlift” article on this. It provides the research on this. Your statement below indicates you read some of the data on it.
However, you appear to have missed some of the information.
With that in mind, let me specific reiterate parts of the article.
Bill Starr’s Deadlift
Starr broke the American Deadlift Record in 1968 by NOT Deadlifting. Starr did so by preforming Heavy Good Morning and Power Cleans.
Ernie Pickett implemented Starr’s training method and came close to the American Deadlift Record in the Superheavyweight class.
NO ONE in America out Deadlifted Starr in that time period.
“Records Are Made To Be Broken”
Starr’s record Deadlift was preformed back in 1968, 49 years ago! Very few if ANY records last that long. So yes, in the 49 years since Starr’s American Record other have pulled more.
My Record 617 lb/280 kg Deadlift Record
I own the state record in the Deadlift for my age/weight class. I set the record in 2002, 15 years ago. I still own the record.
I set the record by implementing Starr’s NO Deadlift Training Method with a slight variation.
I incorporated Good Mornings and Hang Cleans into a Post-Activation Potentiation Training Program, PAP.
PAP essentially “Supersets” a Strength Movement (i.e. Good Mornings) with a Power (i.e. Power Clean) or a Speed Movement. Doing so elicits a greater Power Output than would be achieved by simply preforming a Power Movement, such as Power Cleans.
There are various PAP Training modalities; another topic for another time.
As noted on the website, …
“A local lifter, Phil Rivera, increased his deadlift 25 lbs by integrating some of the ideas of the no deadlift program. Phil is a seasons lifter, so he was quite pleases with the results. In Phil’s program, he would deadlift once a month.”
Westside Powerlfiting Training
To reiterate, this method was developed approximately 37 years ago, circa 1980.
One of the fundamental element and principles of is Conjugate Training, employs Power (Speed Training) in conjunction with Limit Strength Training.
Simmons wrote about the benefits of Power Cleans; Simmons is a student of Starr as I am.
However, Westside Powerlifting Training utilizes “Speed Deadlift (Power) Training” rather than Olympic Pulls.
Thus, the Westside Training protocol MANDATES "Speed (Power) Training needs to be employed as a means of pushing/pulling more. PAP utilize the same principle in a slightly different way
Uni-Directional Vs Bi-Directional Training
Uni-Directional Training: This is the Westside Protocol. The emphasis is having one day set aside for Limit Strength and one for “Speed” (Power).
Bi-Directional Training: This is Post-Activation Potentiation Training Program, PAP. This incorporates Strength and/or Power or Speed into the same day.
Incorporating some type of Power Training into a Limit Strength ensure you will push/pull more. How you write the programs that incorporate Power Training is up to the individual.
Tate was one of Simmons Disciples who teaches the methodology and write about it.
In a discussion with Tate years ago, we discussed the use of Olympic Pulls as a means of increasing Power Output for the Deadlift.
Tate noted he was an advocate of Olympic Pulls, as is Simmons. However, Tate stated that one of the problems is that very few Powerlifter knew what they were and had no idea of how to preform them correctly.
Thus, “Speed (Power) Deadifts” were advocated; since there was less of a learning curve with Deadlifts than Olympic Pulls.
Alternatives to Olympic Pulls
- Trap Bar Deadlift Jumps and Banded Pulls. As I noted, research has demonstrated the Power Outputs of this movement rivals Olympic Pulls.
Explosive Trap Bar Movement are quickly and easily leaned.
- Heavy Kettlebells Swings.
These generate an enormous about of Power that rivals Olympic Pulls.
As per Dr Bret Contreras research…
Squat Swing with 140 lb Kettlebells:
Peak Vertical Force: 2,431-2,444 Newtons
Peak Horizontal Force: 278-353 Newtons
Hip Hinge Style with 140 lbs
Peak Vertical Force: 2,325-2,550 Newtons
Peak Horizontal Force: 499-520 Newtons
KETTLEBELLS AND DEADLIFTING: A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN?
Andy Bolton preforms them and advocate their use.
Chris, I am impressed with the research you do. However,
“I just don’t think”
…means that you don’t know, you are guessing. We’ve discussed this before.
- Research and empirical data clearly show incorporating some type of Power Training into a Limit Strength Training program elicits a greater training effect.
How you decide to do this is up to you.
- The only way to learn anything is with practical experience via correctly implementation of it into your training program.
The biggest reason a successful program fails for most is that it was written and implemented incorrectly.
Thus, if it works for everyone but you, the problem is you, not the program.
*The Conventional Deadlift
The sticking point for Conventional Deadlfiter is the knee area. That is the “Make it or break it” point.
That means the lift is NOT finished.
Limit Strength and Power need to be developed in the knee area.
Development of Power In The Knee Area
Dead Hang Power Cleans or High Pulls
Plyometric Hang Power Cleans or High Pulls.
This means getting a slight bump off the thighs prior to the pull; a method used by Olympic Lifters.
Power Rack Deadlift Rack Pulls. Set the bar just below you sticking point and explode up (try to jump) with the weight; a moderate load need to be used.
Power Good Mornings, 90 Degree and/or 45 Degree Back/Hip Extensions.
Heavy Kettlebell Swings.
The Learning Process
You put a lot of time in reading the research; which I am impressed with.
However, you have acknowledged that you are not willing invest time in obtaining real world, practical experienced at time.
The End Result
You end up being a “Arm Chair Quarterback”.
Essentially, you’re coaching a game that you’ve never played.
It hard to understand any game (training method, etc) that you have no practical experience with.
You definitely do your research reading. Just take the next step and obtain some practical experience.
Stop being a dickhead, with your long-winded responses. If I said “I am not convinced” or “the evidence does not suggest”, would that make you happy? It means the same fucking thing. Notice that Westside doesn’t use power cleans, as you said. Is it somehow better to use a power movement that is less similar to the competition lift vs. one that IS the competition lift, possibly with accommodating resistance?
I used to do power cleans, they did absolutely nothing for my deadlift. End of story. Bill Starr’s story doesn’t prove anything, that’s only one guy. There are elite lifters doing daily max squatting and benching, does that prove that this is the best way to train?
The Devil Is In The Details
You want a answer to a complex question.
It doesn’t work that way.
“They did absolute nothing for my deadlift”
As I stated in my post, that mean that you incorrectly wrote your program.
What Do You LIft?
This was one of your question to me in a previous post.
It appears your yardstick on knowledge is base on how much someone lifts.
Certainly someone need to have played the game to understand it. However, using how much someone lift as a measurement of the I.Q. is a flawed method but a common one.
To placate you, I posted my Deadlift, as well as Squat and Bench Press. I posted my “Resume”, as well.
You had not reply regarding that information due to the fact that my Deadlift was higher than you 500 lb pull.
I provide detailed information.
What you and other decide to do with it is up to you.
Your Problem With My Information
Since you find my post upsetting, you should stop reading and replying to them.
I apology for confusing your with the facts.
Good luck in your future endeavors.
You’re an arrogant asshole. You bring nothing to the discussion except bullshit. Where did I say my deadlift was only 500?