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Testosterone Turning into DHT


#1

Age - 45
Height - 6'
Waist - 34
Weight - 190
Describe body and facial hair - athletic, proportionate build with no facial hair. Arms and legs are hairy, although very limited on chest and back.
Describe where you carry fat and how changed - Carry limited extra fat around waist
Health conditions, symptoms [history] - High cholesterol(240-270) until started taking Zocor(simvastatin)
Rx and OTC drugs, any hair loss drugs or prostate drugs ever - Simvastatin, Vit-D, Multi-vitamin, DHEA until I found it didn't work well with the Simvastatin, Adovart for three weeks since my DHT was high.
Lab results with ranges - are below, what I have at this time
Describe diet - Normal diet, protein shake once a day, two square meals with protein bar on a daily basis.
Describe training - Cardio three times a week, weight training three days a week. I do not over train and just try to maintain.
Testes ache, ever, with a fever? - NO
How have morning wood and nocturnal erections changed - morning woods happen once/twice weekly, have trouble maintaining erections and lack of desire.

Sept. 10th
Testosterone Free(Direct) - 8.6 (6.8-21.5)
DHEA Sulphate - 111.6 (44.3-331.0)
Prostate Specific Ag Serum - 1.9 (0.0-4.0)
Vldl Cholesterol - 22 (5-40)
Ldl Cholesterol - 69 (0-99)
Hdl Cholesterol - 55 (>39)
Triglycerides - 108 (0-149)
Cholesterol, Total - 146 (100-199)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy - 27.3 (30.0-100.0)

Oct. 18th
DHEA Sulphate - 326.4 (44.3-331.0)
Testosterone Free(Direct) - 13.1 (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol - 19.6 (7.6-42.6)
Testosterone Serum - 429 (348-1197)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy - 41.8 (30.0-100.0)

Oct. 31st
Sex Hormone Bindling Glob, Serum - 21.9 (16.5-55.9)
Dihydrotestosterone - 171 (High)

UPDATED December 8th

Vldl Cholesterol Cal - 23 (5-40 mg/dL)
Cholesterol, Total - 187 (100-199 mg/dL)
Ldl Cholesterol Calc - 107 (0-99 mg/dL)
Triglycerides - 113 (0-149 mg/dL)
Hdl Cholesterol - 57 (>39 mg/dL)

UPDATED December 21st
WBC - 8.4 (4.0-10.5)
RBC - 5.07 (4.14-5.80)
Hemoglobin - 15.1 (12.6-17.7)
MCV - 86 (79-97)
MCH - 29.8 (26.6-33.0)
MCHC - 34.6 (31.5-35.7)
RDW - 13 (12.3-15.4)
Platelets - 279 (140-415)
Neutrophils - 60 (40-74)
Lymphs - 29 (14-46)
Monocytes - 10 (4-13)
Eos - 1 (0-7)
Basos - 0 (0-3)
Neutrophils, Absolute - 4.9 (1.8-7.8)
Lymphs, Absolute - 2.4 (0.7-4.5)
Monocytes, Absolute - 0.9 (0.1-1.00)
Eos, Absolute - 0.1 (0.0-0.4)
Basos, Absolute - 0.0 (0.0-0.2)
Immature Granulocytes - 0 (0-2)
Immature Grans - 0.0 (0.0-0.1)
LH - 4.0 (1.7-8.6)
FSH - 5.1 (1.5-12.4)
DHEA, Serum - 95 (31-701)
PSA, Serum - 0.6 (0.0-4.0)
Vit D, 25 Hydroxy - 51 (30-100)
Estradiol, Sensitive - 15 (3-70)
Testosterone, Serum - 360 (348-1197)
Free Testosterone - 8.8 (6.8-21.5)

Why am I Here: Lacking in ability to keep an erection and desire with my sexual partner. Workouts are increasingly becoming harder and have not enough desire to complete them.

I started using testosterone cream two months ago(Sept 26th). It's a compounded cream from a national well known pharmacy. Two pumps twice daily, rubbing it between my thighs. Dosage is 1 gram at 200mg. I also am taking DHEA which I have stopped this past week due to an article I've read on the effect of DHEA/Simvastatin(Cholesterol)

I have since started taking Avodart and am in week three. I have experience no symptoms, good or bad other than little water weight in upper body, giving me a knot at times behind my scapula.

Stopped taking cream and avodart on November 19th and had new labs done on December 8th to begin a new baseline. Will post once receiving these back. Injections will start after the holidays with new T doc which I was recently introduced through. Has same protocol as KSman has been preaching in the threads.


KSman is Here
#2

[quote]txrunner22 wrote:
I started using testosterone cream two months ago(Sept 26th). It’s a compounded cream from a national well known pharmacy. Two pumps twice daily, rubbing it between my thighs. Dosage is 1 gram at 200mg. I also am taking DHEA which I have stopped this past week due to an article I’ve read on the effect of DHEA/Simvastatin(Cholesterol) My test scores are as follows:

Sept. 10th
Testosterone Free(Direct) - 8.6 (6.8-21.5)
DHEA Sulphate - 111.6 (44.3-331.0)

Oct. 18th
DHEA Sulphate - 326.4 (44.3-331.0)
Testosterone Free(Direct) - 13.1 (6.8-21.5)
Estradiol - 19.6 (7.6-42.6)
Testosterone Serum - 429 (348-1197)

Oct. 31st
Sex Hormone Bindling Glob, Serum - 21.9 (16.5-55.9)
Dihydrotestosterone - 171 (High)

I have since started taking Avodart and am in week three. I have experience no symptoms, good or bad other than little water weight in upper body, giving me a knot at times behind my scapula.

Can anyone give me some solid advice on the cream vs. other options and where to go from here? I’m a 45 y/o male, 6’ 190lbs. [/quote]


#3

Read the stickies and get more labs.


#4

Eat some protein, take some zinc, vitamin B6 and magnesium while you read these…

P.S.

Never apply cream to scrotum, unless you want to lose your libido.


#5

Sorry guys, obviously posted before fully reading the stickies. Will get more labs done again. I’m assuming by reading the posts these tests are the ones needed now that I’m on a testosterone cream: TT/FT/E2/Prolactin/DHT/LH-FSH/PSA/DRE

Please advise before getting in contact with my doctor. As far as the Adovart, what are you thoughts for now since this is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor? Stick with the plan I’m on until the labs come back?

Great site…glad I found it.

Have updated my first post!


#6

Never heard of the “DHEA/Simvastatin(Cholesterol)” issue before.

Your cholesterol is TOO LOW. As cholesterol levels drop below 180, statistically, all cause mortality increases.

Reduce statin drug dose. Cholesterol=200 with your high HDL would be great.

How much vit-D3 are you taking, Vit-D25 should be higher.

You are converting too much T–>DHT in your skin. If you switched to self injections, DHT levels would not be high.

Statin drugs also lower CoQ10. You should supplement CoQ10 ‘ubiquinoal’. With low CoQ10, your mitochondria will not work well, undermining the vitality of very cell in your body. This is statin’s dirty little secret.

Please re-read the fist sentence in the Advice for New Guys sticky.
Test TSH, fT3, fT4. Post body temperatures and iodine intake, iodized salt use.


#7

Thanks KSMan - few more questions and answers to your post.

This is from Medscape on DHEA/Simvastatin - “dhea will increase the level or effect of simvastatin by affecting hepatic/intestinal enzyme CYP3A4 metabolism. Serious - Use Alternative.”

I’m taking 5000 IU daily which has increased my Vit D/25 14 points in one months time.

I’m going to visit another doc on Wednesday to visit about injections. And I will start taking the CoQ10 Uniquinol tomorrow…what is the dosage?

I understand how to find body temperature but how do you determine iodine intake and iodized salt use? Through a test? Or just on communication basis.

Sorry, for any ignorant questions!


#8

DHEA, E2 or T increases will have the same effect. You can watch cholesterol numbers then reduce the statin drug as needed. Many drugs can have this effect and vise versa.

Do you have iodine in your vitamins? Do you use iodized salt? Not rocket science ;}

Ubiquinol 50mg/day.

Response to 5000iu Vit-D25 is poor. I hope the product is not at fault. Possibility that you spill vit-D via kidneys that should ‘spare’ that and other steroid hormones. Vit-D25 is a steroid hormone.

You are applying 200mg T per day, norm is 100mg, and you are getting 1/2 of upper T range. This is a poor response and the 200mg is driving a lot of T–>DHT.

Suggest that you self inject. DHT will normalize. Then if response to injections is also low, we would know that you are a hyper metabolizer or you are spilling T in urine - hyper excreter.

Post body temperatures.

Vit-D3, DHEA and fish oil. Do not take hydrophobic supplements with high fiber/starchy meals as absorption can be impaired. Take with an oily/fatty meal when possible.


#9

Thanks Again KSman…tomorrow I see a new doc who prescribes injections.

Iodine is in my multi-vitamin, 150mcg it says. I take iodized salt with my meals occasionally.

I’ll get my Vit D checked again tomorrow. The product is from a compounding pharmacy. When you say spill, is that good or bad?

I’m going to cut back cream to 100mg per day until visit with new doc tomorrow. Do you have thoughts on stopping the cream and going immediately to injections if this new doc has an understanding of everything? If the shots don’t help the DHT and I am a hyper metabolizer/or spilling T in urine, then what helps? Would you suggest getting off the Avodart?

My supplements currently taking, VitD, Multivitamin and priobotic. I take in the morning after coffee and do use fiber supplement in my coffee in the morning. Obviously won’t be doing that anymore per your advice.

I will visit with doc and get full set of blood work done with visit. Including Test TSH, fT3, fT4. And will post body temperatures.

Thanks! Any other advice before visiting doc tomorrow? Appreciate your guidance.


#10

You can switch from cream to injections overnight, and stop Avodart. Things like Avodart can be very harmful for some. Overall, DHT is mission critical for libido and virility, you need it.

Injections will lower DHT and this is a primary reason to switch to injections.

You need to tell the doc how you want to inject, twice a week or EOD.

Always used that vitamin?

You need to post your body temperatures!!!

Spill is used in reference to the kidneys pissing something away that kidneys should be retaining.


#11

I’ve been using the vit d for two months.

I’d like to inject twice a week, sub q.

I’ll read on your recommendation.

No more avodart, it scares the crap out of me. I think my doc put me on it cause of fear of hair loss.

Once again, thanks!


#12

Met with new doc who treats testosterone with pellets, injections and gels. He asked me to get blood drawn on Monday to allow cream I was taking to get out of my system. Apparently to get new panels. He seems to be open for opinions on my end. The injections he mentioned were every other week with test cypionate. He said that is where he starts and will adjust from there. He also wants to draw panel again the week following the first injection to see how scores fare.

My temps:

9:00 am - 96.1
11:30 am - 96.0 - one hour after 4 mile run
5:30 pm - 97.2
8:30 pm - 97.5
9:30 pm - 98.0

And to further include, my workouts are all about maintaining. I’m more tone guy than cut and just try to stay in above average cardio shape with three days of weight training.

I’m hoping I will be able to tell a difference once the injections start. Also and glad to be off the avodart since it was making me feel extremely off.


#13

[quote]txrunner22 wrote:
My temps:

9:00 am - 96.1
5:30 pm - 97.2
8:30 pm - 97.5
9:30 pm - 98.0
[/quote]

What is your iodine intake?

  • iodized salt?
  • vitamins?
  • kelp?

Get the suggested thyroid lab.


#14

Iodine intake is with multi-vitamin - 150mcg
Iodized Salt is very limited - have been using sea salt
The only other is Vit-D3 - 5000IU

Labs will be taken on Monday


#15

How long have you been using multi-vit with 150mcg iodine?

Context: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/ksman_has_a_thryoid_problem


#16

I’ve been using the multi with iodine for about four months. And, have started taking the CoQ10.

Thanks for the thread on iodized salt. What should a person’s temps be?


#17

Above 97.3 in the AM, 97.7 considered very good, and 98.6 mid afternoon.

Nice thing about this is that you can do it yourself, quickly and not cost.


#18

KSman, needing your opinion, yet again…BTW thanks!

I just found a doc that will allow injections at the patient’s frequency and allow tests in the same regard. He has wait list for two weeks. I’m leaving Dec. 9th and won’t be back until after xmas. If you agree, I’m going to remain off everything until I get back in the country and start fresh with this new doc. I’ve been off Avodart and the cream for four days now. I will re-draw all labs with him when returning from vacation and the holidays.

Last thing is, I do have a history of not enough fiber in my diet which causes me to struggle with deuces. Hence, two hemorrhoid surgeries. Any advice?


#19

Hemorrhoids from or worsened by straining? The obvious answer is to change your diet. Your diet may be imposing a few nutritional deficiencies. High fiber diets are known to reduce cholesterol so low fiber diets are known to …

A good probiotic might be helpful.


#20

Long history of hard stools. I eat relatively healthy but obviously need more fiber in my diet. I’m taking a probiotic the last few months, but doesn’t seem to have helped. Any referral for one you believe in?

Looking forward to getting new tests done after the holidays to get the year started on the right foot.