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Testosterone Production - Too Much?!


#1

So this isn't a typical question, and I couldn't find any useful info searching. Also I understand this is the steroids forum but I'm a lurker and you guys seem to know your shit. So here goes:

I had a full Male Salivary Profile done with some strange results. I originally went to my Doctor last year for my yearly with blood work. I got my total T checked and it was low. 10nmol/L or around 286 for you guys.

Anyway, I know total levels aren't to important, more the free levels. So like I said I got the Salivary done, the results are as follows:

Estradiol - 2.2 (0.8-6.6)pg/ml
Testosterone - 251 (43-135)pg/ml
DHEAS - 27 (4-15)ng/ml
Cortisol AM - 10.3 (2-11)ng/ml

Then a 3 more cortisol's which were all normal. Now my Naturopathic Doctor and I are baffled how the hell my Natural T is that high and yet I can't seem to "use" it.

I'm not huge, but have some size. Nothing special, I'm not lean (17%) and not all that strong lol. I have been training hard/consistent for 3+ years and on/off before that. I got a good knowledge when it comes to myself and how I handle foods/training.

Basically I'm cutting right now but can't seem to get Lean. With those kinds of Numbers I should be bigger/leaner as agreed with my Doc.

He believes my Receptors might be "Down regulated". Anyone heard of this naturally?

He also said two other things: My liver might not be metabolizing the hormones (so we're doing a sort of fix there) and I might be "Backed up in the pipes". We're doing a GI de-tox right now too.

One other thing I believe would be a big factor is I work alternating night shifts as well. My sleep is less than stellar.

Besides taking "Receptormax" anyone have any Idea how to become sensitive to the T? I came to the doc with Low T symptoms so this is a huge shock (blessing?) for me lol.

Sorry if this is the wrong forum, not sure where to post or who to ask.

Darkane

Oh, one thing to add - This does correlate with Poliquin's Biosig as well. I've gotten my Biosig taken a couple times, and as high as 20% BF I still had a relatively low 6mm Tricep fold. Not sure how to attack this situation.


#2

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#3

Hey,

Yes agreed. The salivary was a Free Testosterone sample.

The blood work I got earlier in the year for total Testosterone (Which I know means very little) was low.

So to my surprise, I was almost double the high reference range of the particular lab that did my work.

So yes, this work was for Free Testosterone.


#4

Maybe the salivary lab was faulty?? I would confirm with either another lab (a good salivary lab has been mentioned several times recently) or a blood free testosterone level.


#5

Yes. That is sound advice.

It's strange because I got a little write up as well with the results and The doc and I went over it. The lab said and I quote:

"The Testosterone result was verified by two independent extraction and assays of the sample. This may delay reporting of the results in some case".

Also said:

"Note that prolonged exposure to high levels of testosterone may result in testosterone receptor down-regulation, and symptoms of low testosterone may develop".

So they did confirm it because the lab thought it was weird too. I think we will be doing another set of tests in a couple months so see how everything is doing.

Pretty neat stuff though. They gave me a 1.5 page write up from the lab about my results. If anyone is interested I could scan it.

Also I just wanted to note, that although I agree the results could be inaccurate, I do trust this lab. They do all the work for our Pro sports teams here in town (Flames, and Stampeders).

Doc was telling me stories of our Football players literally coming to him with destroyed Endo systems from years of AAS abuse and crying in his office. Haha.

:smiley:

Darkane

EDIT: Forgot to add, that yes I will be doing my yearly physical at my MD in a couple weeks. Gonna try and get him to re-do my total, free, E2 and a couple others. That will be blood work. Then I can sorta compare, although it's apples to oranges.


#6

Look at LH, FSH, Prolactin and SHBG too.


#7

what kind of stress are you under?
what do you do for a living.

I ask only because you have high cortisol levels.
they are within "normal" but they are up there

I dont think its a case of down regulation but its actually a case of possible stress.

cortisol and test usually go hand in hand
when one is high the other is low. but in this case your test looks alright based on this test but cortisol is up there


#8

Cortisol is highest in the morning and tapers during the day. I bet the OP had his test first thing in the AM.


#9

Unlike blood tests which only check the AM cortisol value, most salivary testing requires 4 samples throughout the day to check the cortisol 'rhythm'. One at 6am, one at 12, 2 and 4. I believe the OP eluded to this and said that everything in that dept. looked normal.

I have never heard of a down regulation of test receptors before (doesn't mean that it is not possible, just means that I am not up on the literature), but I also saw some similar results with a friend. His total test was in the 200 range(35yo) and he was obviously symptomatic, we ran a salivary panel on him and his free test was also over 200 (range 50-80pg). LH, FSH and prolactin were normal as well as E2. Additional testing was not completed due to finances but a SHBG would have been a good idea.

Many docs are starting to see lower test levels and an increase in symptoms of hypogonadism in younger and younger men. Idk what is going on but it is rather unsettling. Perhaps endocrine disruptors are part of the problem. Also starting to see quite a bit of young college men with female fat distribution patterns. Sad really.

Good luck and keep us posted!


#10

Hey,

Yes my cortisol is rather high in the AM. Work and sleep are a major contributing factor I know. I work in the Oilsands in Northern Alberta alternating Night shifts too.

I got piss poor sleeping patterns. But yes, I did do the 4 total cortisol samples, and toward the end of the day it was perfectly in the middle of the range. Just at the beginning it was high.

Cortisol and Testosterone don't use the same receptors do they? I don't see how being high in Cortisol could down regulate the Testosterone receptors. I can see high cortisol lowering Testosterone, but not in my case.


#11

In my research saliva testing is good for cortisol & DHEAS but not T&E. Apparently small amounts of blood can throw off test and estrogen readings.
You want to be be at the top of the range for cortisol.
Blood test would be better for T&E and a urine test would be the gold standard.(Blood test is a snap shot where as urine is collected over 24hrs and gives a complete picture).


#12

I dont remember if cortisol and test utilities the same receptors, I think cortisol does bind to the same receptors though.

What I do know is that testosterone levels will affect cortisol and vice versa.

a big possibility would be your rest and your work. your just getting "burnt out"


#13

Yes. That's one of the reasons I went to get all this checked out.

I should be leaner and stronger for the amount of effort that's going into my training and diet. I've gone up to 6 weeks with no cheats, all meals planned out properly, Trace carbs, proper supplementation, HRX. Training is well thought out and precise. (I'm trained by Ironaddict over at www.ironaddicts.com)

Lol, oh well I'm gonna Lorenzo's Oil myself if I have too :slight_smile:

Thanks for all the responses folks. Will keep updated!

Darkane


#14

Hey guys,

Seeing my MD tomorrow for my yearly. Gonna request some specific blood work as follows:

Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Bioavilable Testosterone (Is this the same as free T?)
SHBG
LH
FSH
Prolactin
E2

Anybody see anything missing?


#15

I would want to get a full thyroid panel done as well.
At least:
TSH
T3
T4
rT3


#16

And the answer is....

Bad sleep effects T secretion. Violating circadian rhythms alters the patterns of secretion of T, among other hormones. Oilsands workers are not alone:
[i]
Steroids. 1992 Feb;57(2):86-9. Links
Subnormal serum testosterone levels in male internal medicine residents.

Singer F, Zumoff B.
Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Medical Center, New York, New York.
The consequences of sleep deprivation and stress in residency training have not been quantified. In the course of assembling a control group for other studies, we unexpectedly observed a significant (P less than 0.005) and marked depression of serum testosterone levels in healthy male internal medicine residents (means = 11.8 +/- 1.1 nmol/L, n = 7) compared with other hospital personnel (means = 20.6 +/- 5.3 nmol/L, n = 18). Testosterone concentrations in the two groups were entirely nonoverlapping, while luteinizing hormone levels were not significantly different. We conclude that the stress of residency training leads to a quantifiable depression of gonadal function, and that gonadal steroid concentrations may be useful in evaluating measures intended to reduce that stress.[/i]

There is no need to look for other causes; lab tests are not needed.
Get checked, if you want, at the end of a restful vacation, eh?


#17

Sounds like a flaky lab regardless of whether they work with pro athletes or not.

Not because of the reading, but because of their commentary.

Anyway, as lv 426 said, salivary readings are not necessarily accurate. The tiniest trace of blood can completely throw them off.

In this case, suppose for example that readings are doubled due to a truly tiny trace of blood.

None of the other readings are so low that it's unreasonable that the whole thing might not be falsely high by a factor of two.


#18

Thank for all the Responses guys. Appreciated.

To DrSkeptix, I do realize sleep is the contributing factor to my low testosterone symptoms.. however, according to that Salivary test they claim my receptors are down regulated naturally. Of course there is a good chance it's not accurate, but that's what I'm trying to 'fix' right now.

I know from my blood test that I'm low, and I just got the new blood work sheet from my Doc. So I'll have new results soon.

He only put down a Total, and free Testosterone check, but I'm going to mark the boxes for LH, FSH, and Estradiol. At least I can compare all of those.

Would PTH (parathyroid Hormone) have anything to do with this? There is a box for that under Endocrine system tests.


#19

Yes, as I said, their commentary is flaky, as is the entire business of their pretending that much can be concluded from one salivary test.

But if you want to believe them, and ignore the explanation I gave you, that is your business. However if you are bound and determined to just believe them anyway, then why post a question? You already have the answer that you (unwarrantedly) buy.


#20

Hey Bill,

No I completely respect your explanation. My Naturopathic Doctor believes them and is trying to 'fix' the receptor down regulation. I am actually quite skeptical still and is why I'm doing the extra blood work etc :slight_smile:

Bill - Quick question for you if you got the time:

Have you had any experience or heard of Trans-D-Tropin? It's a Topical Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone. The ND might be considering it for me. Thoughts? You can pm if you wish.

Thanks