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Testosterone + Nandrolone + Drostanolone is a Good Lean-Bulk Stack


#61

I know someone who’s running 500 mg continually, so I’d agree with @chemania that it’s typical in some circles.

I’m not sure that I’d want to risk it.


#62

Are you referring to not being able to sleep (legitimately) or you’re scratching you’re head as to why oxymetholone has supposed estrogenic activity. I personally believe oxymetholone is more androgenic than its rating implies due to the fact that it is partially metabolized to mestanolone when Ingested (remove the C2 hydromethylene group and it’s mestanolone). Very little is known about the pharmokinetics of oxymetholone (more research should be conducted actually, since it still is used as adjunct therapy for aplastic anaemia, fanconis anaemia and severe HIV related wasting)… Hell even the HL is unknown STILL! For a drug that’s been around since 59 that’s pathetic…

You’re PR antagonist theory makes sense, as the 11 HSD inhibition would cause water/sodium retention and the PR antagonism could cause gyno, thus the “estrogenicity” of the drug would actually be estrogen related at all… However due to the androgenic and non aromatisable nature of the drug I find it hard to believe such EXTREME water retention could occur in the absence of ER binding, there hasn’t been any research on the compounds “estrogenic” activity

Oxymetholone itself actually has a relatively low binding affinity to SHBG ( https://academic.oup.com/endo/article-abstract/114/6/2100/2538442?redirectedFrom=fulltext ) however mestanolone has a very high binding affinity to SHBG, mestanolone doesn’t tend to cause gyno or estrogenic effects, unless one was taking a massive dose of test/ aromatising AAS, a shbg decrease shouldn’t spell a significant increase in estrogenic sides (say 100mg test/wk + 25-50mg oxymetholone/day) I don’t think there’d be much of a noticeable increase in direct shbg mediated estrogenicity, 500mg+ test + oxymethomone and I’d agree there could be a difference.

If the issue is increased estrogen itself causing the sides, an AI would help (although I dislike AI’s), if it’s ER antagonism you’d need a serm, an AI will lower estrogen, but estrogenic activity related to ER binding would require a serm (which I believe have their own set of risks), however why jump the gun, first make sure you get estro sides before adding more drugs.

Need more sleep lol, I get 10-12hrs a day, sometimes more (there’s something wrong with me as to why I sleep so much, it’s been an issue for years, potentially chronic fatigue or something, not a big deal tho). Why are you getting up at 4am… Holy shit that’s so early, it’s still DARK out!!!

My E2 is less than half what yours is, however I’m just on trt + dhea, and soon 1-dhea as an experiment (gonna trrraaaassh my lipids)

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00616.2013

Gonna take a third of the dose in this study to see what it does to my HR and BP. I’m aware my health isn’t great but I don’t think I’ve got that long anyway, a LOT of my issues are anxiety related, I get these massive spikes in adrenaline sometimes for no God damn reason, esp when I socialise, I probs need to be medicated for the anxiety… it’s pretty bad.


#63

Let’s ask the super expert resident endocrinologist bodybuilding competitor Dr Mr Sir

@physioLojik why does oxymetholone (anadrol) have estrogenic side effects?


#64

What was the name/brand of those spring rolls


#65

I’m going to sleep now, I’ll check tommorow (still got some of em) will update tommorow morning.


#66

Liver support during oral AAS - the most reliable solutions.

Mechanism of liver damage induced by xenobiotics - a fast overview:


“Detoxification of drugs and xenobiotics in the liver by drug metabolizing enzymes (DMEs) is an important phenomenon in the acquisition of homeostasis. Alteration in homeostatic status leads to a shift in the dynamic equilibrium of metabolism toward the ROS generation thereby oxidative stress leading to organ malfunction.”.

“Phase I and phase II enzymes play a crucial role in the metabolism and detoxification of various drugs and xenobiotics. For the acquisition of dynamic homeostasis, highly tuned metabolic control of drugs or xenobiotics by xenobiotic metabolizing enzymes is needed. Any imbalance in the activity of these enzymes ultimately leads to the shifting of equilibrium toward free radical generation that could finally bind to macromolecules such as DNA to cause mutation, lipid to cause membrane damage, or proteins to alter their activities”.

“The hepatotoxic reactions caused by drugs may be summarized as acute reactions (which consist of hepatocellular necrosis), cholestasis (with or without inflammation), and miscellaneous reactions; however, some drugs can cause chronic damage and may even lead to tumor growth”.

“There are several studies that suggest the generation of reactive metabolites and free radicals from hepatotoxic drugs. (…) Membrane lipid peroxidation is directly related to the depletion of tissue GSH (an intracellular antioxidant) leading to the altered functional integrity of these structures and if the damage is sever, it could be fatal. (…) Membrane lipid peroxidation may lead to alteration in membrane fluidity and permeability, enhanced rates of protein degradation, and ultimately cell death. (…) The concentration of intracellular GSH, therefore, is the key determinant of membrane integrity and the extent of toxicant-induced hepatic cell injury.”.

“CYP-mediated reduction of halogenated hydrocarbons, for example, carbon tetrachloride or halothane, can likewise create free radical intermediates, which can straightforwardly harm cell layers through lipid peroxidation, or can target nucleophilic DNA deposits”

“Glutathione- S -transferases (GST), a crucial Phase II enzyme, initiates the detoxification process by catalyzing the conjugation of –SH moiety of glutathione to xenobiotics, thereby neutralizing the electrophilic sites and rendering the products more water-soluble.”

“In addition to the dynamic equilibrium of Phase I and Phase II enzymes, reduced GSH, glutathione peroxidase (GPx) and catalase (CAT) are also critical in acquisition of normal cellular physiology as these are involved in the elimination of lipid peroxides and toxic oxygen radicals formed during the cellular metabolism”

Conclusion: to limit toxic influence of oral SAA on hepatic cell, membrane integrity, DNA & proteins structure must be upheld with the help of antioxidant power and by mechanisms allowing membrane to recuperate faster/limit disintegration (obviously, elevated liver markers results from spilling of the cell).

SILYMARIN (mixture)


“Its hepatoprotective activity is unique and acts in different ways, including antioxidant and anti-inflammatory activities, cell permeability regulator and membrane stabilizer, stimulation of liver regeneration and inhibition of deposition in collagen fibers, which may lead to cirrhosis”


decreased lipotoxicity


“Silibinin administration decreased serum alanine aminotransferase and improved liver steatosis, hepatocyte ballooning, and lobular inflammation in db/db mice fed an MCD diet” (~250 mg HED injection)


“In alcoholic liver disease, comparing with placebo, aspartate aminotransferase was reduced in the silymarin-treated groups (p = 0.01) while alkaline phosphatase was not” (400-600 mg, oral administration)


“exacerbated the promotional effects of ethanol in HCC bearing mice, but only in males”


“The results showed that SIL reduced the AST and ALT levels more significantly than the control group” (200-1200 mg/d, was not dose-dependent)

“Based on our clinical experience and the results in this meta-analysis, the regimen in Han et al (silymarin 70 mg/tid 12 weeks + simvastatin) and Masoodi et al (silymarin 140 mg/bid 12 weeks) were strongly recommended because of their robust therapeutic effect and less side effect events.”


“In a systematic review and meta-analysis including five randomized controlled trials and 270 patients, routine silymarin administration determines a significant reduction in fasting blood glucose levels and has no effect on lipid profil” (200-600 mg/d)


~1% of BV (there are some innovative solutions to enhance this, not in my country)

More about this later.


#67

Still waiting on the egg roll brand… I love Chinese food but can never seem to find a good frozen egg roll… IV been buying these “takhi” stick egg rolls but there not cutting it. Would love to try something new


#68

Asiana selection cocktail spring rolls. They come frozen and you can pan fry or oven bake them. They’re unhealthy tho


#69

Thanks! Did some research don’t think they sell them by me so I ordered some. I eat healthy 85% of the time the other 15% I eat egg rolls and cheesecake


#70

So with the 1% oral bioavailability do you bother taking this supplement (you mention there isn’t a way to enhance the BV in you’re country), I mean… you could take a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot, kinda like oral test undecanoate, super low oral bioavailability due to the lack of C-17 methylation (Oral Test U is absorbed via lympatic system)


#71

At first I wanted to describe each compound I use directed to liver health, but then I’ve realized it’d take too much time which I have less and less… All antioxidants with confirmed hepato-protective properties will fit here, as well as GSH substrates. Vitamins E & C, selenium, choline, cysteine, sylimarol, cynarine, PC with Pgp inhibitors (coumarines, black pepper) to enhance sylimarol and cynarine BV would help for sure. Diet is no less important (should be rich in flavonoids, carotenes).

It’s 3rd day of oxymetholone @ 75 mg. Massive bloat as people describe (I’ve gained 2 kg after just 3 days!), immediately increase in strenght (+3 kg in bench press per set). Feeling great, administering oxy with food so no GI tract disturbances (maybe a little). Despite water retention, BP & HR are in check (120/80, 70 BPM). No change in libido or perception in any way. What’s interesting, I need more sleep (from 6 h to 8 h for sure). I don’t feel “unwell” or something, like people say. We’ll see what happens next. The last thing I want is to cumulate body fat, It’d be just 4 weeks on this wet compound then switching to trenbolone for another 3-4 weeks if health allows.


#72

May I ask why you’re using this much gear (just curious). Oxymetholone doesn’t have the greatest track record for safety, while it’s hepatotoxic nature is vastly overstated. It’s use has many reported case of adverse effects (granted mostly in sick people and high doses for prolonged periods of time). Do you intend to get an EKG or ECG post cycle to check cardiac function? I’d use mestanolone though (If I had a clean bill of health, which I most certainly don’t). I’d choose metandienone any day over oxymetholone… However what I really want to use one day (if my health ever goes back to normal) is methyltestosterone, however there’s no way to get it domestically in Australia, probably due to low demand (hepatotoxicity, highly estrogenic yet moderately anabolic, fairly low oral bioavailability (around 50 percent orally)) make it impractical for bulking up, and this isn’t why I’d use methyltestosterone, I’d take it at the higher end of the prescription spectrum (so 40/day, equiv to about 20mg of testosterone being absorbed thus being equiv to around 200mgs of test/wk). I’m curious to see the effect it would have on my lipids, blood pressure, liver function and sense of well-being compared to regular testosterone, plus it’d give me a break from the primoteston that I have bad reactions to, I’ve already got a fair bit of scar tissue. it’d be more like an experiment in which i’d be using myself as a guini pig. Currently can’t do that though, just got some bloods done to determine if there’s any endocrine reason for my heart problems (recent bloods hinted at me becoming anaemic), I’ve been having PVC’s over the past few days, fairly frequently, they suck. Potentially I’m very sensitive to beta adrenergic receptor upregulation, that being said I also appear to have serious orthostatic intolerance (think POTS). might be prescribed beta blockers in the near future :/. I highy, highly doubt my very low doses of AAS for short periods of time have caused cardiomyopathy or some other cardiac manifestation, I think it’s coincidence and bad luck.


#73

I use high AAS dosage (high for my experience) because I can manage most of the sides (proper stacking, prevention, monitoring) and it’s used for short period of time through a year so back to homeostasis is (almost) certain. Current cycle will last for 14 weeks in total, of which 9 weeks are rich in truly toxic drugs (5 weeks of oxymetholone, 4 weeks of trenbolone - still reasonable, optimal doses). Another cycle no sooner than in 5 months after the current is finished (the hearth & kidneys complete tests would be performed just before).

14 weeks of high-volume hypertrophy plan directed to upper-body musculature allows me to add 10-12 kg of LBM (I count water obviously, muscle retention is quite extreme anyway). Following 4 weeks would be dedicated to muscle preservation with isocaloric diet and medium-volume hypertrophy training plan, but the hardest part is still to leave the cycle in a controlled way. I’d probably stop nandrolone decanoate in the week 10th so after 4 weeks it’s blood concentration wouldn’t interfere with my TRT protocol so much (would use NPP next time for sure - ND half-life has more disadvantages than profits, still don’t know why I’ve decided to use ND, lol).

Oxymetholone @ 75 mg for 9 days experience:

  • slight headaches sometimes, feeling “sick” sometimes, cus of slightly elevated BP,
  • BP at the morning ~115/75 HR 70 (before first oxy’s dose), BP during a day ~135/75 HR 90, body temperature @ 37*C,
  • increased water retention for 3-4 days (after that time weight seems to be stable),
  • strength gains & joints comfort are undeniable and worth including the compound,
  • I react much better to Anadrol than to Dianabol!

My libido and mood haven’t changed even for a percent (except those sides related to elevated BP). I’m very E2-mood/libido sensitive. Plus given above post about my thoughts on oxymetholone’s pharmacology, I don’t think that water retention is related to it’s estrogenic properties. I don’t think it has any estrogenic properties at all now, maybe peripherally only (which is good), and maybe only because of it’s anti-P4 nature. I’m so happy about those conclusions, the compound is great - I’d use 100 mg for the last 2 weeks, probably, and definitely include this in following mass-oriented cycles.

My %BF is still constant, after 6 weeks it increased maybe at most by 0.5-1.0% (fat folds thickness are increased by water retention so the result, probably - it’s still just plus 1.0 mm in abdominal area only).


#74

I’ve got a question, so I frequently see people claim they’re embarking on a “low” dose regiment of anabolic steroids, yet then state the cycle at hand is something like 100mg test/wk and 700mg primo/wk. That’s 800mg/wk, not a low dose. Then I thought about how not all AAS are equal mg for mg.

For instance one could say, I’m running 100mg of methyltrienolone/wk for 4 weeks, it’s only 100mg, but that 100mg is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, FAAAAARRR more potent than an equivalent 100mg dose of testosterone (and the user would likely die within a few weeks).

Given methenolone has an anabolic rating of 88, theoretically it should have (on paper, I know it’s not as simple as this as estrogen, water and glycogen retention enhance anabolism) 88% the anabolic potency of testosterone, does this mean mg for mg, one has to take more for the required hypertrophic effects. Let’s take a different compound, drostanolone. What’s considered a low dose of masteron? It’s anabolic rating is merely 62, on paper that’s quite weak, if one was to say, “hey I’m taking 100mg test and 400mg masteron weekly” is it feasible to say that person is on a low dose due to less anabolic potency mg for mg compared to testosterone or is it still like “nope, that’s 500mg/wk, that’s a normal cycle dose”

Just curious, I can’t cycle atm anyway due to potential health issues.

I mean 500mg of test (or anything)/wk (to me) is a large dose and seems excessive (to me, for my particular needs), I can only imagine the amount of acne I’d have on such a dose of test or some other androgenic compound

So, is the HR of 90 sitting or standing, if sitting then it’s probs around 110 standing… Which probably isn’t great, I’m on beta blockers now, they work great for lowering a fast HR and relieving symptoms of panic attacks (mostly the fast HR). Also HR tends to be lower in the morning, I’ve had mine dip down into the low 50s or even high 40s just before I get out of bed, upon waking up the HR spikes (now with beta blockers it’s pretty steady though, like 65 sitting and 85 standing)

Is there any possible mechanism that would explain an increased perception of joint comfort from oxymetholone or is it purely related to the fact that androgens tend to increase pain threshold?


#75

Yee, literature shows (I’d find the study but I got a new device and thus all my bookmarked studies are now gone) 100mg is more effective than 50mg, however the increments in lean mass tend to dramatically level off after either 100mg or 150mg/day (oxymetholone is one of the only oral AAS that’s been studied at high dosages, that and oxandrolone and metandienone, though the metandienone studies are old), however increased doses are associated with an increase in side effects, primarily hepatotoxicity. There’s this study that I like (easy to find) where elderly men are given oxymetholone at 50 or 100mg/day for 12 weeks.

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpendo.00363.2002

Can’t say I’d use oxymetholone though, only circumstance I’d consider taking something that strong would be in a scenario in which I had surgery and had to be in a catabolic state forms prolonged period of time, I’d take something strong like oxymetholone or metandienone to amoreliate muscle wasting and potentially lessen the amount of time needed for physical therapy post surgery. In which case I’d have to worry about blood clots and all that wonderful stuff. (But then again they typically give anticoagulants if one is going to be in a bedridden, catabolic state) like when I got my ankle operated on I took daily sub Q shots of enoxaparin for about 6 months


#76

Seriously, my friend, your health status worries me. What anxiolytic are you taking and does it even help? What kind of anxiety do you struggle with? I’d like to help with my pharmacotherapy knowledge, I’ve just passed an exam on CNS diseases.

Have you tried any psychotherapy, have you came to the source of the problem?


#77

Supposedly I have GAD… Autism (high functioning), attention deficit disorder, fibromyalgia (which I think is BS), hypogonadism, I’m sure there’s a few more labels but I can’t think of them. The list of meds I take (against my better judgement for putting them up here)… Oh that’s right, the doctor thinks I have autonomic dysfunction (will find out tommorow whether my heart issues are of any concern or not)

  • Fluoxetine 60mg/day (hyper Cyp2d6 metabolizer… I know… Have you ever heard of an SSRI dose this high!), personally, I don’t think it helps, I believe it was in appropriately prescribed for reactive depression that I had when I was in severe pain.
  • Guanfacine (selective Alpha 2a adrenergic receptor agonist) 4mg/day, likely the cause of my hypotension, it’s given to me off label to treat ADHD and anxiety… I think it’s absolutely useless, I still have a very hard time concentrating on things I find uninteresting. I took stimulants as a child, they helped tremendously however I couldn’t eat on them, and certain ones gave me emotional instability (don’t remember which ones exactly though, I was given quite a few)
  • Atenolol (recent, cardioselective beta blocker, for fast HR, 25mg/day, works wonders)
  • iron + vit C for iron deficiency anaemia, likely caused by rectal bleeding that I have for some reason (will be seeing a colorectal suregon), the iron makes me feel sick…
  • testosterone enanthate 140mg/wk

I have a lot of issues, not exactly a normal one, but then again if I was normal I wouldn’t be on here. I frequently do wonder how long I’ve got left, it sucks living every day with the thought “well I might die today” constantly floating around, and there isn’t particularly any good reason for me to think that way. I’m fully aware a person of my status never should have taken anything (PED wise or recreational or whatever) without a doctor’s prescription, the potential complications are numerous and more likely to happen to someone like me then say… Well a healthy individual such as yourself. That being said on higher doses of testosterone (200-250mg/wk) I feel amazing, but that’s beside the point. For many of the issues I deal with I find therapeutic solace in exercise (frequent, intense exercise), however with my heart troubles recently I haven’t been able to exercise for the past week or so (I went today actually), my mental state deteriorates fairly rapidly in the absence of exercise, I don’t have any friends (in this country) so it isn’t as if I can distract myself by hanging out with my mates that don’t exist. I’m aware of the times where the way I think isn’t particularly healthy, I’m also aware that my future is very hit or miss whether I actually manage to do something good or whether I completely fuck everything up (which is a real possibility), I’m trying my best to keep my head on straight ya know, but sometimes it’s difficult.

As to psychotherapy, I see a psychiatrist, I’ve never found the source of my anxiety. I was bullied fairly extensively throughout my younger years, although it’s a little bit more complicated than that (actually this was what got me seriously into bodybuilding), probably has something to do with the way I turned out, moving countries, towns, houses frequently wasn’t easy either, starting anew can be difficult in the preteen and mid teenage years. Anyway this post is becoming too personal lol so I’m going to end it here. I should end my statement by saying I don’t take recreational drugs, nor do I (or ever have I) used benzodiazepines for anxiety as they are POISON and to be avoided at all costs. Oh and I’m just on TRT currently, not thinking of taking anything without a prescription anytime soon… Might up testosterone to 200mg/wk because in an irresponsible idiot (most teenagers are… Amirite) IF I find that my heart is in good shape.

I should also clarify, despite these events, I am not depressed, just anxious. Anyway tommorow I find out whether my heart actually has something wrong with it or not, the wait is obviously making me quite anxious. It’s the uncertainty that makes me anxious, I like being sure about things, having everything meticulously planned out, unknown variables (like not knowing what’s wrong with my heart, or not having a way to get home after an event) really eat away at me for some reason, it’s like some type of OCD like tendancy.

@chemania


#78

Hey @chemania are you alright? Just checking in incase something bad happened. Everything’s good (health and life wise)… Right?


#79

Hey mate, yes, thanks, everything on track, just Christmas and stuff. How are you?


#80

I’m really good atm, having a blast on holidays catching up with family and old friends. I actually partook in Christmas for the first time ever this year (not with my family) but still, I can definately see why people like it so much lol.
@chemania

Getting the HR under control has also drastically decreased my anxiety (that and being with my friends in the states)