Testosterone and Nothing Else

The area I’m getting confused on how to respond is whether you are looking at HRT or a “cycle”? I’ll base my answers on HRT.

Q. 1. is it a bad idea to do testosterone only?
NO, good idea, I would recommend getting some Proviron to add to it though, but not needed at all.

Q. 2. what should I do if my estrogen levels climb?
Being that you would only be using transdermal testosterone and maybe some Proviron you will not have to worry about estrogen. Now if you were to bathe in the cream it might become a problem, but even then I wouldn’t think so. Transdermal application of testosterone increases DHT to above the normal levels even when testosterone is only increased to normal, the increased DHT will keep a check on estrogen, add this to the fact that you will be reaching High-normal levels at best and not supraphysiological levels.

Q. 3. do you know of any case histories of guys who’ve done testosterone only?
See this is one of the places I get confused. Are you talking about the thousands of people that have ran a Testosterone-only cycle of injectable testosterone? or people running Testosterone cream/gel? Again I’ll answer according to a hrt perspective: Personally I find a increase in well-being and sex-drive while using a transdermal (or any form of HRT)as well as increases in muscle-mass and decreases in fat-mass, I’m not talking anywhere near the level someone gets on a “cycle” but rather it would be comparative to gaining back how you felt at 18.

If you are going to use the cream, which I do sometimes, I would use it twice-a-day; first thing in the morning and again 8-12 hours later. Rubbing it on your scrotum increases absorbsion and conversion to DHT, but leaves you with a greasy sack - if you like that cool, I don’t. I’d rub it on my inner arm, neck, and shoulders - plus you can get a higher level of testosterone rubbing it elsewhere because you can put on more and over a larger area - think of your skin as a sponge, it can only get so saturated before it becomes wasted.

Now as far as creams copying a more natural testosterone wave, maybe it’s true, but the doctors recommending aren’t on it themselves; they will talk about the extreme peaks and valleys with injectable and how creams are better, but the creams have a more extreme peak and valley over a much shorter time frame = feel like shit for a couple hours, great for a few, ok for some more, repeat. Maybe the ideal HRT would be injections of testosterone AND morning cream? I do not see that added health benefit of flutuating from let’s say 200-1000ng of testosterone daily to follow a “more natural curve”

You had asked about the levels reached with various forms of application. I personally am at 240 naturally, around 550 with 5mg/test of cream, 700 with 10mg/test of cream, 950 at 105mg/week Prop, 2100 at 350mg/week Prop, These are MY numbers and vary for everybody and aren’t really relavant other than it shows that for me injects lead to a higher level, a personal feeling of having a more even test level and well-being.

You really need to decide or at least make it clear whether you are looking at just feeling better/younger or are after the benefits of a cycle; and from experience I would rather inject myself twice-a-day than have a greasy scrotum and have a peak and crash everyday. My recommendation is that if you want to do it fine, you will have benfits from it, just be careful about touching others the first hour or so after you put it on, and consider that not only will you probably not enjoy having a greasy sack, women don’t like a greasy/smelly sack at all.

You may also consider going to an endocrinologist to see what caused your low T in the first place. Even at 53, that level could be “caused by something”.

I’m 34 and have a benign tumor on my pituitary gland which wasn’t revealed until after an MRI: I actually thought the MRI was kinda cool - the sounds you hear are akin to “Welcome to the Machine” by PF.

It was a bit trippy and didn’t feel claustro in the least. Superfluous info aside, my T was measured at 219 pre Andro Gel and 6 weeks later it was 360 - 5 grams. I got the doc to raise my dose to 7.5 grams, and I bought Novadex XT (T booster), which is “anti-aromatase”, so I’m hoping to get the levels at high normal or beyond normal.

At my 6 month checkup, with any luck my liver and other bodily functions will hopefully be tested as being normal. I’m just interested in building muscle mass easier and knowing what sex drive beyond that of a 6 year old boy is like.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Amadon wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Well, looking at the graph, it appears as though you get a peak, and then a drop back to around your ‘pre-application’ blood levels of test, within about 8 hours. If this is correct, then this would surely be a recipe for disaster.

The key to maximising the beneficial effects of test replacement (ie mood, libido, energy levels, concentration) and minimising the side-effects (estrogen buildup and water retention ), is to try to maintain the smoothest, most stable blood levels possible. This doesn’t look like doing that - at all. Or am I missing something?

Those peaks and valleys mimic (roughly) what goes on with the T levels of a guy in his prime (around 25-30 years old). Natural T levels vary widely throughout the day, so I wouldn’t say it was a “recipe for disaster” at all.

Compared to an injection, the administration of T into your bloodstream is more even throughout the month. With injections, the amount going into your bloodstream goes down slowly from the time you get the injection until just before your next injection. That’s not really ideal.

Aside from your obvious ignorance regarding the effects of injections of esterified hormones, please answer me this:

If natural test levels vary ‘widely’ throughout the day, why don’t hormone blood tests get taken at the same time every day? Or at least, why they don’t in this country, lol.

The graph you link to, shows a daily fluctuation from 7.5 to 22.5 pg/dl, and whilst I readily accept some fluctuation in line with circadian rhythm, I can’t see that a 300% increase is really the case. After all, you state that the graph represents what happens to the T levels of a guy in his prime…[/quote]

How “nice” and informative you are in your responses never ceases to amaze me.

You know as well as I do this guy has done zero homework, yet you are informative and very nice in your responses.

Kudos to you Bushy.

Mostly for just looking and feeling better and younger, but I’m also somewhat into working out with weights and other equipment at a sports club. So, I’m not exactly in the right place in this forum, and I appreciate your responses.

It’s nice to get some information after weeding out the downright mean bastards that seem to inhabit this board. I think they should look at the psychological effects of super-high testosterone, because it’s turning some of them into Neanderthals (I’m talking to you, Petedacook, you s**thead).

The levels are normally high in the morning, and that’s considered the best time to take the tests.

More than just “zero” homework. Just different sources of info than you guys. You guys do so-called “recreational testosterone.” In other words, you’re into a high risk/high return approach.

One guy (above) told me that most guys here don’t even get their T levels checked before injecting T.

THAT’S NUTS!

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Amadon wrote:
The levels are normally high in the morning, and that’s considered the best time to take the tests. Yeah but are you really trying to tell me that a 25-30 year old man experiences a 300% increase/decrease in his test levels over the course of a single day??? THATS NUTS!
[/quote]

The levels vary more with young guys than with older guys. They can go up and down by a lot, and the obvious signs of that are, for example, how horny you are, whether you have a hardon, etc.

Two answers come immediately to mind: if you have incipient prostate cancer, taking extra T can lead to a very early, painful death.

Secondly, if you’ve already got a very high natural T level, taking extra T will just set you up for a fall later in life, for example, shutting down your balls for good, sterility, and atrophied testicles to the point, sometimes, of castration.

[quote]
Two answers come immediately to mind: if you have incipient prostate cancer, taking extra T can lead to a very early, painful death.

Hmmmm, and how exactly is checking your T levels pre-cycle going to tell you if you have incipient prostate cancer?[/quote]

Okay, I was too brief. When you get your T levels checked for the first time, you should also get your PSA levels checked. (PSA = prostate specific antigen). If PSA levels are high, it could indicate prostate cancer, even in its earliest stages. Since T greatly increases the rate at which prostate cancer grows, you shouldn’t take T if your PSA levels are high. Proceeding blindly to take extra T without having your PSA levels checked is playing with fire.

I can see you guys have your own approach to this entire subject. Anyway, consider that by taking extra T you cause your balls, sooner or later, to shut down their own production of T. That leads to ball atrophy, sterility, and all that fun stuff, no matter where your T levels were at the beginning.

All righty, have fun.

[quote]
Alright dude, I tried to kind of ‘lead’ you in the right direction, but it is becoming painfully obvious to me that you are a ‘think what you like and like what you think’ type of fellow, so I’ll just bow out now…[/quote]

Funny, I had the same feeling about you, i.e., you’re going to think what you think, regardless of conflicting info…

Let’s see:

Study mentions that in healthy young subjects, the mean nadir of test concentration in the circadian rhythm is 420 ng/dl, and the mean peak is 577 ng/dl. Yep, a 200-300% daily fluctuation looks like an excellent recommendation based on that data. After all, if natural young men fluctuate in their test by less than 40% daily, surely fluctuating 5-7 times more than that will give 5-7 times better results! As opposed to, say, feeling like an 80 year old one moment and a 30 year old the next.

How about:

Well, it’s not a scientific study, but if you’re curious enough you can always go look for the paper in your local med library. Apparently, sperm production rebounds to fertile levels a mere 3 months after hormonal contraception (i.e. testosterone), without the use of PCT and hCG. 3 months, of course, means the rest of your life. Shockingly, the article cautions that long term side effects may include weight gain. Oh, the horror!

As for prostate cancer, dig up the medical case histories of recreational androgen use exacerbating hidden prostate cancer, and people will listen. I’ve tried and I can’t, maybe you’ll have more persistence than me when it comes to winning meaningless internet debates.

Go ahead, tell us that systematic, published scientific and medical research isn’t acceptable to one as open-minded as you.

Let’s get to the heart of the matter. Taking testosterone makes sense when a guy is over 50. And, it makes sense for a minority of guys under 50. But, for a younger guy to do “recreational testosterone” just to build muscle and for the psychological kick he may get out of it is risky behavior.

At 53, already not concerned about having kids anymore, I’m justified in taking extra T. Guys in their 20’s and 30’s who are otherwise in good health, really have no business taking extra T. You can’t predict what the long term effects are going to be.

You’re jumping on a roller coaster you’re going to have to ride for the rest of your lives. And, given that the effects of hormones are so unpredictable, and so variable depending on the individual, anywhere you go for advice on what to do next is going to be a roll of the dice.

Messing with hormones and the endocrine system, and your balls, isn’t kids play. Even expert doctors have completely different opinions about what to do.

So, if you want to go ahead and gamble, be my guest, but the kinky cocktails a lot of you guys are taking are very risky. You may get short term great results in the mirror, but what happens in the long run? What happens when you no longer have the time to work out and maintain that bulk?

Hormones are very powerful. They are way beyond vitamins. Considering how little is known about how they work and what the long term effects are, there really are no “experts” here, no matter how proud you may be of yourselves and your collective expertise.

[quote]Amadon wrote:

Hormones are very powerful. They are way beyond vitamins. Considering how little is known about how they work and what the long term effects are, there really are no “experts” here, no matter how proud you may be of yourselves and your collective expertise.

[/quote]

You come across as very arrogant. Why ask any questions if you already have all the answers? Try your Japanese sac spread, and post some before and after photos.

[quote]Coldiron wrote:
Amadon wrote:

Hormones are very powerful. They are way beyond vitamins. Considering how little is known about how they work and what the long term effects are, there really are no “experts” here, no matter how proud you may be of yourselves and your collective expertise.

You come across as very arrogant. Why ask any questions if you already have all the answers? Try your Japanese sac spread, and post some before and after photos. [/quote]

You come across as very arrogant yourself. In fact, this entire board is full of arrogant bastards like you.

Try your god damned juice all you want. All you’re doing is fucking yourselves up. You don’t know what the hell you’re doing, and from a legitimate athlete’s point of view, you don’t even make your gains honestly. You cheat, like Mark McGuire.

[quote]Amadon wrote:
You come across as very arrogant yourself. In fact, this entire board has is full of arrogant bastards like you.

Try your god damned juice all you want. All you’re doing is fucking yourselves up. You don’t know what the hell you’re doing, and from a legitimate athlete’s point of view, you don’t even make your gains honestly. You cheat, like Mark McGuire.

[/quote]

LOL!!! Cheater,Cheater,Pumpkin-Eater! Now gather all your toys and please leave the sandbox.
Dude you’re something else.

[quote]
LOL!!! Cheater,Cheater,Pumpkin-Eater! Now gather all your toys and please leave the sandbox.
Dude you’re something else.[/quote]

You’re damned right I’ll leave. There’s nothing here worth learning. It’s all a bunch of perverted garbage.

[quote]Amadon wrote:

LOL!!! Cheater,Cheater,Pumpkin-Eater! Now gather all your toys and please leave the sandbox.
Dude you’re something else.

You’re damned right I’ll leave. There’s nothing here worth learning. It’s all a bunch of perverted garbage.

[/quote]

I guess petedacock was right
“I have a name for people like you, it is called a FUCKING TOOL”