Went to the my GP today, closed minded guy didnt want give me HCG or Arimidex for the protocol I informed him about. My test is low and I’m desperate to try an experiment. So while I’m looking for a new doctor that will persrcibe me these two missing items, in the mean time I have 100mg Test Cyp, some Liquidex & also Clomid that I have prescribed from an old Urologist. I have primary Hypogondism and I’m curious if this would get me going, and prevent atrophy and excessive estrogen.
Don’t mix AIs (liquidex) with SERMs (chlomid). Read the stickies. Don’t take an AI without knowing where your E2 levels are. Please add ranges to those lab values (edit your post).
You did not state your age and your e2 levels were not tested for, therefore you should not be using arimidex anyways for e2 control. While I have seen it purported on this forum as a blanket statement that e2 control through arimidex needs to start on day 1 of TRT, there is no scientific backing for this and it is merely broscience.
Many young men will not need to manage e2 levels through an AI on TRT, as their e2 levels will remain in a healthy range. Older men on TRT, however, will be more susceptible to increased e2 levels while on TRT. In addition, it is imperative to know your e2 numbers along with being aware of symptoms of excessive and deficient estradiol, as both have negative consequences. Therefore, your doctor was being prudent in not prescribing you an AI since you have not suggested any indications of high e2, although it is wise to test your e2 to get a baseline of it before commencing TRT.
Lakshman et al. (2010) The effects of injected testosterone dose and age on the conversion of testosterone to estradiol and dihydrotestosterone in young and older men. J Clin Endocrin Metab. 95:3955-3964.
[quote]Daedalus wrote:
You did not state your age and your e2 levels were not tested for, therefore you should not be using arimidex anyways for e2 control. While I have seen it purported on this forum as a blanket statement that e2 control through arimidex needs to start on day 1 of TRT, there is no scientific backing for this and it is merely broscience.[/quote]
I think you would be hard pressed to provide a post from a knowledgeable member of this forum that advocates this WITHOUT AN E2 TEST…go ahead, I’ll wait…
[quote]
Many young men will not need to manage e2 levels through an AI on TRT, as their e2 levels will remain in a healthy range. Older men on TRT, however, will be more susceptible to increased e2 levels while on TRT. [/quote]
This is what the theory says, but the “bro science” experiences of this board does not check to chart…we are seeing MOST of the guys that come on here with symptoms of high E2 that is later confirmed with bloodwork (both those on TRT and those that aren’t)…but that is still not reason to jump onto adex without knowing your E2 prior…
I have not seen and did not imply that there are members here that have advocated starting an AI regimen without testing first for estradiol.
The broscience that I was referring to is from a forum member here that has put this information at the top of a sticky:
This recommendation of using an AI without evaluating the effect of TRT on one’s estradiol level is without merit. As in the case of many young men, there will not be a need to use an AI until much later. This was the point I was hoping to make, and apparently it was lost. The reason I make this point is that this misinformation leads to some people, like the OP, mistakenly believing that they must need anastrozole because they are placed on TRT.
So do you think people with demonstrated high E2 levels will self-correct when they start TRT? It seems to me that the only direction E2 is heading in when someone already has high levels is UP
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
So do you think people with demonstrated high E2 levels will self-correct when they start TRT? It seems to me that the only direction E2 is heading in when someone already has high levels is UP[/quote]
I have never implied that high estradiol levels will be corrected with TRT. I do not know how you are attributing that thought to me. I am also unsure if you are reading what I am writing.
Most young men that are testosterone deficient are also estradiol deficient. Older men tend to have cases of testosterone deficiency with high estradiol. It is therefore imprudent for young men to begin treatment with an aromatase inhibitor before identifying how they respond to TRT. Some young men will never need an aromatase inhibitor while on TRT, while others may need one sooner or later. This is why it is reckless to make a general recommendation that an aromatase inhibitor regiment needs to be started concomitantly with TRT. It is pointless and possibly dangerous to medicate yourself unnecessarily.
My purpose in this thread was to educate others that may not have a firm understanding of testosterone replacement and to elucidate what is actually known and has been shown in the literature. I will not continue to participate in a forum where some people are so close-minded in their broscience views that they begin to attribute false ideas and words to others in order to vindicate what they believe to be true, even in spite of peer-reviewed evidence that shows otherwise.
I have never implied that high estradiol levels will be corrected with TRT. I do not know how you are attributing that thought to me. I am also unsure if you are reading what I am writing.[/quote]
I’m not attributing anything…I am asking questions…That is what is indicated by the ‘?’ at the end of my sentences…I can’t help it that you are getting butthurt by having someone with a dissenting view asking questions about the statment you just made.
[quote]
Most young men that are testosterone deficient are also estradiol deficient. [/quote]
As I’ve already said, this is theory and may be backed up by literature, but in the context of THIS BOARD it is being directly contradicted by actual cases…in fact, out of the younger guys here (<30) I can’t think of but a handful that DIDNT have high E2 accompanying their low test…
[quote]
It is therefore imprudent for young men to begin treatment with an aromatase inhibitor before identifying how they respond to TRT. Some young men will never need an aromatase inhibitor while on TRT, while others may need one sooner or later. This is why it is reckless to make a general recommendation that an aromatase inhibitor regiment needs to be started concomitantly with TRT. It is pointless and possibly dangerous to medicate yourself unnecessarily.[/quote]
Nobody is recommending it recklessly or to start it automatically on Day 1 without accompanying bloodwork demonstrating its need…it is recommended IF YOUR E2 IS HIGH AND THAT HIGH LEVEL IS AFFECTING YOU…if your getting ready to start TRT and have demonstrated symptoms and bloodwork of both low T and high E2, why would you not start your TRT regimen with E2 control? Just sit and wait for a few months to see “how you’re reacting” (i.e. your already high E2 is either staying the same or rising) and feel miserable in the meantime? THat makes absolutely no sense…
Are you fucking stupid? I have not put words in your mouth at all in this thread…you are way too sensitive (high E2 problems yourself?)…Your participation in these forums have been limited…go through the first page only and find out how what we are seeing here is in direct contrast with your studies…I am all for science and literature man, but what you’re saying is just wrong…and frankly, if you aren’t intelligent enough to even look through what we’re seeing and figure that out on your own, your contributions here aren’t needed…
[quote]
As I’ve already said, this is theory and may be backed up by literature, but in the context of THIS BOARD it is being directly contradicted by actual cases…in fact, out of the younger guys here (<30) I can’t think of but a handful that DIDNT have high E2 accompanying their low test… [/quote]
This is not theory, but fact that is demonstrated in the literature. Anecdotal exceptions usually occur.
I have never said that those with demonstrated high E2 levels should not treat their high levels. However, in the case of those without demonstrated high E2, you should not use an AI until you see how you respond to TRT. I am wondering if I need to rewrite this a few different times for you to comprehend this.
[quote]
Are you fucking stupid? I have not put words in your mouth at all in this thread…you are way too sensitive (high E2 problems yourself?)…Your participation in these forums have been limited…go through the first page only and find out how what we are seeing here is in direct contrast with your studies…I am all for science and literature man, but what you’re saying is just wrong…and frankly, if you aren’t intelligent enough to even look through what we’re seeing and figure that out on your own, your contributions here aren’t needed… [/quote]
Take a deep breath and relax. I apparently hit a nerve with you, and for that I apologize. All I have done is present what is known in the literature from very respected scientists that are on the forefront of testosterone research. I attempt to do this as we are constantly learning new things as a community, and I was hoping that I could help enlighten others as to the state of TRT. If you prefer to hang on to old notions as you are unconvinced by the data, that is fine. But I would ask that you be more respectful in your discourse, as your outburts make you look childish and it is hard for me to take you seriously. In terms of what I have presented, I haven’t said anything that hasn’t been shown to be correct by the current literature. You are presenting and attributing hypotheticals to me that I have never posited. If you wish to continue to engage in a discussion, I ask that you are respectful and refrain from ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments, as your last few posts have been riddled with them.
Dude what you are saying is true…that you don’t necessarily need adex on Day 1…I’m not disputing that.
But what you are saying is also irrelevant in the context of this forum because not a single person here recommends jumping on adex without E2 results demonstrating its need…the VERY FIRST response in this thread made it clear that this should happen…as is the case for all our threads…
That is why E2 is part of the required blood tests in the blood test stickey.
Your statement of:
[quote]
While I have seen it purported on this forum as a blanket statement that e2 control through arimidex needs to start on day 1 of TRT, there is no scientific backing for this and it is merely broscience.[/quote]
was not the full truth…this should have said “e2 control through arimidex needs to start on day 1 of TRT IF YOUR E2 IS HIGH”…what you wrote is half truth and I called you on it then you launch into other circular speak with your nose in the air trying to defend it when you were flat out [halfway] wrong…
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Dude what you are saying is true…that you don’t necessarily need adex on Day 1…I’m not disputing that.
But what you are saying is also irrelevant in the context of this forum because not a single person here recommends jumping on adex without E2 results demonstrating its need…the VERY FIRST response in this thread made it clear that this should happen…as is the case for all our threads…
That is why E2 is part of the required blood tests in the blood test stickey.
Your statement of:
The bold part of the statement adds more than what I was referencing (I agree that high E2 needs control). The original post I was referencing does not include what you have typed in capital letters. From the first post of “TRT: Protocol for Injections”:
[quote] Elevated normal [30pg/ml and up] serum E2/estradiol can block many of the benefits of testosterone replacement. Serum E2=22pg/ml is near optimal and one should dose anastrozole to get close to this level. Many who start TRT have some good results that soon vanish as E2 levels increase. My recommendation is to start anastrozole at 1.0mg per week [in divided doses] starting the day of the first injection. The let the first follow up E2 lab drive any needed anastrozole dose adjustments. It is not a good idea to wait and see how high E2 levels go before taking action. Dose anastrozole EOD if possible.
A few guys are anastrozole over responders. This is not known in the drug literature. These guys will get E2 in the single digits and will feel like crap physically and mentally. They may feel a spike of short lived libido as they fall through the E2 levels sweet spot. These guys need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected anastrozole dose -something to watch for. If this is suspected, stop anastrozole for 6-7 days then resume at 1/4th the dose. [/quote]
In this, there is the blanket statement that [quote] start anastrozole at 1.0 mg per week starting the day of the first injection. [/quote] There is no mention or context of doing this only if there is a demonstrated need, which is what I have a problem with. It is good that you understand that you only start an AI regiment with a demonstrated need, but others read this forum and assume that they automatically need an AI if they are starting TRT, and the OP of this thread is a good case in point. So I fail to see what you are taking issue with what I have wrote.