T Nation

Testing Higher Frequency


#1

After reading so much on how higher frequency is better for bulking and causes more muscle growth i've decided to give it a try myself . I've made a little program for myself but im not quite sure if its all good . Guess im going to try it out myself to see if its works.. I've upped my calories intake to 4000-4500 daily and consuming about 300g of protein. Any thoughts on the workout? Here it is. I'd appreciate some criticism on it.

Sunday-Chest/Shoulders/Tricep

Incline-Dumbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Flat-Barbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Overhead Dumbell Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Dumbell Lateral Raises
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Incline French Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Bar Push Downs
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 8-10 x ??

Monday-Back(thickness),Biceps

Barbell Row
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Deadlift
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Dumbell Rear Delt Raise
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 12-15 x ??
Barbell Shrugs
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 12-15 x ??
Pinwheel Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-10 x ??
Incline Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-10 x ??

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??

Wednesday- Rest

Thursday-Chest/Shoulders/Triceps

Decline-Barbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Flat-Dumbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Barbell Overhead Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Cable Lateral
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Overhead Dumbell Extension
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Machine Dips
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??

FridayBack(width),Biceps

Chin Ups
3 sets of as many as i can do(fairly weak on this)
Lat Pulldown(wide)
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Rear Delt Machine
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Dumbell Shrugs
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Reverse Barbell Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Preacher Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??


#2

no thoughts? =[


#3

looks good to me, I say give it a go and see how you do. The only thing I would watch would be doing RDLS the day after deadlifts, you may not be able to do as much weight, but I dont think itll be too much of a problem


#4

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:
Sunday-Chest/Shoulders/Tricep

Incline-Dumbell <- drop this
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Flat-Barbell <- Drop this,
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??

imo warm your chest up with cable cross overs, then go into incline barbell bench, followed by incline fly’s. In my experience flat barbell has caused me too many shoulder issue and isn’t as effective with stimulating my chest.

before prof x asks for a pic of my chest, look at my display photo.

Overhead Dumbell Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? <- I’d do lateral raises first, then ohp.
Dumbell Lateral Raises
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??

Incline French Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Bar Push Downs
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 8-10 x ??

Monday-Back(thickness),Biceps

Barbell Row
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Deadlift
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Dumbell Rear Delt Raise
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 12-15 x ?? - I’d do these before deadlifting.
Barbell Shrugs
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 12-15 x ??
Pinwheel Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-10 x ??
Incline Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-10 x ??

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? - I would make this your first exercise
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??

Wednesday- Rest

Thursday-Chest/Shoulders/Triceps

Decline-Barbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Flat-Dumbell
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? - if your doing decline, I’d substitute an incline press
Barbell Overhead Press
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? - again I would do the laterals first
Cable Lateral
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Overhead Dumbell Extension
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? - id substitute this for a cable pushdown, too me its not an effective mass builder, it’s more of a finisher get the pump type movement.
Machine Dips
10 x ?? , 8 x ?? , 6-8 x ??

FridayBack(width),Biceps

Chin Ups
3 sets of as many as i can do(fairly weak on this) - maybe try rack chins, imo I get great lat stimulation from these that I have ever gotten doing any variation of chins. The set up to do them is a pain but I’d go for that.

Lat Pulldown(wide)
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ?? - I’d go for the under hand grip personally, you get a longer stretch and your biceps are put in a mechanically stronger position so they wont give out as early.

----I’d add something like Stretchers or pullthroughs with a rope after pull downs just to really get as much blood into the area as possible,

Rear Delt Machine
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??
Dumbell Shrugs
12 x ?? , 12 x ?? , 10-12 x ??

Reverse Barbell Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Preacher Curls
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??[/quote]

apart from the suggestions I made it seems like a decent program, recently I tried doing deadlifts before bent over rows and found I got great back stimulation after deadlifts. (I was deadlifting 5 plates then rowing 350lbs for 6 after)

consistency both in the gym and the kitchen are really going to be the main things that help you grow.


#5

[quote]Chris87 wrote:
looks good to me, I say give it a go and see how you do. The only thing I would watch would be doing RDLS the day after deadlifts, you may not be able to do as much weight, but I dont think itll be too much of a problem[/quote]

Yeah i see. Maybe i could i just get rid of deadlifts and add another movement? I guess my lower back would be getting enough work from the squating and RDL’s already


#6

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
[/quote]

I kind of glanced over this without thinking about it properly, I’d drop the rdl’s and do a sumo stance leg press and maybe do front squats instead of back squats but you know your body than anyone else.


#7

I’m curious about a few things:

Why leg press at the end of your leg day? This would make sense to me using pump sets or something similar…

Why only one leg day on a HFT routine? Are your legs highly dominant over you upper body?

Other than that, let us know how it goes. Experimentation is always excellent.


#8

[quote]ironwheel wrote:
I’m curious about a few things:

Why leg press at the end of your leg day? This would make sense to me using pump sets or something similar…

Why only one leg day on a HFT routine? Are your legs highly dominant over you upper body?

Other than that, let us know how it goes. Experimentation is always excellent.

[/quote]

I really want to add another leg day but im not capable since im really busy on saturdays…And i decided to add a leg press at the end of my workout to exhaust my muscles even more. I also find that legg presses hit my hamstrings more . And yeah i guess you could say im more of a leg dominant guy as well lol.


#9

The whole point of high frequency training is that volume per workout goes way down to compensate…this looks like your standard high volume program only you expect to recover enough to hit each bodypart twice a week. Not gonna happen IMO, especially if you’re training hard.

Pick one effective exercise for each bodypart (compound if you can), and do 3-5 sets per exercise

Ex:
1)Incline dumbbell press
Lateral raises
closegrip press/dips

2)DB rows
Weighted chins/Rack chins
DB curls

3)Squat/Legpress
RDL
Maybe another hamstring exercise, or abs

4)OFF

Repeat. Squeeze calves into there somewhere

The advantage of high frequency as I see it, is that even though the stimulation PER WORKOUT may go down, each bodypart is stimulated twice as frequently. Resist the temptation to do too much volume


#10

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
The whole point of high frequency training is that volume per workout goes way down to compensate…this looks like your standard high volume program only you expect to recover enough to hit each bodypart twice a week. Not gonna happen IMO, especially if you’re training hard.

Pick one effective exercise for each bodypart (compound if you can), and do 3-5 sets per exercise

Ex:
1)Incline dumbbell press
Lateral raises
closegrip press/dips

2)DB rows
Weighted chins/Rack chins
DB curls

3)Squat/Legpress
RDL
Maybe another hamstring exercise, or abs

4)OFF

Repeat. Squeeze calves into there somewhere

The advantage of high frequency as I see it, is that even though the stimulation PER WORKOUT may go down, each bodypart is stimulated twice as frequently. Resist the temptation to do too much volume[/quote]

with most newbies, which I’m assuming this guy is(other wise he wouldn’t be asking about his program). The golden rule is there is no such thing as over training just under eating.

Sure as he begins to progress he may find that he can’t recover as quickly and then he can start chopping out exercises. I’d be surprised if they guy was benching 250lbs for more than a rep(again no offense to the op but without pictures to indicate otherwise, my statement stands true).


#11

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:
The whole point of high frequency training is that volume per workout goes way down to compensate…this looks like your standard high volume program only you expect to recover enough to hit each bodypart twice a week. Not gonna happen IMO, especially if you’re training hard.

Pick one effective exercise for each bodypart (compound if you can), and do 3-5 sets per exercise

Ex:
1)Incline dumbbell press
Lateral raises
closegrip press/dips

2)DB rows
Weighted chins/Rack chins
DB curls

3)Squat/Legpress
RDL
Maybe another hamstring exercise, or abs

4)OFF

Repeat. Squeeze calves into there somewhere

The advantage of high frequency as I see it, is that even though the stimulation PER WORKOUT may go down, each bodypart is stimulated twice as frequently. Resist the temptation to do too much volume[/quote]

The high volume+high frequency issue is somewhat variable. For my part, I could not maintain both to this level for more than a few weeks without stepping back, and then ramping back into the HV+HFT again. Not entirely dissimilar from the infamous Arnold Beginner Routine, this will at least show the OP how decent his recovery is.

Nonetheless, a very good point.


#12

[quote]jwesus wrote:

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
[/quote]

I kind of glanced over this without thinking about it properly, I’d drop the rdl’s and do a sumo stance leg press and maybe do front squats instead of back squats but you know your body than anyone else.[/quote]

Ill definitely will try that for leg press . As for squats, im incapable of doing front squats…My arms are so long that when i try to hold the bar on my chest it basiclly rubs on my neck… it also hurts my wrist.


#13

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

[quote]jwesus wrote:

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
[/quote]

I kind of glanced over this without thinking about it properly, I’d drop the rdl’s and do a sumo stance leg press and maybe do front squats instead of back squats but you know your body than anyone else.[/quote]

Ill definitely will try that for leg press . As for squats, im incapable of doing front squats…My arms are so long that when i try to hold the bar on my chest it basiclly rubs on my neck… it also hurts my wrist.
[/quote]

have you tried just crossing your arms and placing the bar across your clavicle? thats what I do.


#14

[quote]jwesus wrote:

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

[quote]jwesus wrote:

[quote]TheDon12 wrote:

Tuesday-Legs
Squats
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Hack Squats
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
RDL
10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Curls
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
Leg Press
10 X ?? , 10 x ?? , 6-8 x ??
[/quote]

I kind of glanced over this without thinking about it properly, I’d drop the rdl’s and do a sumo stance leg press and maybe do front squats instead of back squats but you know your body than anyone else.[/quote]

Ill definitely will try that for leg press . As for squats, im incapable of doing front squats…My arms are so long that when i try to hold the bar on my chest it basiclly rubs on my neck… it also hurts my wrist.
[/quote]

have you tried just crossing your arms and placing the bar across your clavicle? thats what I do.[/quote]

Hmm… im going to see if i can learn to do them like that… But i feel its unneccesary since im already doing hack squats and my regular squats are done close stance. Isn’t that enough for my quads?

Also what do you think about me dropping deadlifts from back and doing some like this so i can maintain the RDLs.

tuesday-
pulls ups 3 sets
barbell row 3 sets

friday-
lat pull down
cable row


#15

I kind of don’t get why people read something and suddenly decide that this or that should work for them? No offence to OP, but if higher frequency workouts work for you, you’d have figured that out by yourself, surely?

You know the whole “over-compensation” thing, train a bodypart with a certain volume, and just train it again when it’s stronger again? It’s a basic concept that I think many bodybuilders seem to have “lost”, they’d rather get “romanced” by some new idea and drop the simple things that seem to be working already.

For the record, I do higher frequency workouts (typically 2x/week for upper, and 1x/week for lower). I’ve tried experimenting with higher/lower frequency for each bodypart and fell on this frequency (because it made me the strongest)…it had nothing to do with reading an article, or following someone else’s routine, it’s all to do with your own feedback (and the main indicator of a good program - strength gain or not).


#16

I personally have a pretty high work capacity and I train with the push/pull/legs split like you, where I hit everything twice pr week. I usually have 3 excercises for pecs, lats and delts, 4 for legs, then 2 for biceps, triceps and abs. My calves get enough stimulation from my running. So I have pretty high frequency as well as a lot of volume pr workout and it works perfect for me, so maybe it will for you too.

Its always good to ask for advice, but I’d say that the best thing you can do is to experiment and see for yourself. If you talk to someone with a smaller work capacity than you, then you might end up not “reaching your full potential” like someone just wrote about in the livespill.

Like Thib says, do as much work as possible, without overtraining. Take it to the limit and experiment, you can always back down again if you are getting your ass kicked by your program.


#17

<- would not take advice from people who look like they are still making newbie gains but that’s just me.


#18

[quote]jwesus wrote:
<- would not take advice from people who look like they are still making newbie gains but that’s just me.

[/quote]

who you aiming that comment to?


#19

What ever you do I would advise against dropping the deadlifts. If you are fairly new to the game you need to build up some strength. Deadlifts is one of the best wasy to do that. Don’t drop them because they are hard you need to do them.

As for front squats hurting you. I would assume you just need to get use to them. the more you do them the better it gets. that said you would be fine just doing back squats for now.

I would also say that the chance of overtraining on this program is slim to none. Make sure you hit your protein goal


#20

What ever you do I would advise against dropping the deadlifts. If you are fairly new to the game you need to build up some strength. Deadlifts is one of the best wasy to do that. Don’t drop them because they are hard you need to do them.

As for front squats hurting you. I would assume you just need to get use to them. the more you do them the better it gets. that said you would be fine just doing back squats for now.

I would also say that the chance of overtraining on this program is slim to none. Make sure you hit your protein goal