Test, Tren, A-Dex + Gyno

G’damn, that’s good to know Dr. Ryan.

Sancho, brotherman. :wink: good info as usual.

With that and Crowbar, there’s a treasure-trove of valuable info for anyone sketched out on the whole tren/gyno issue.

Peace!

Guys, this is one of the many reasons I love T-Nation! This thread has turned into a nice brainstorm session. Thanks to everyone for joining in, and lets keep this going.

I find this whole issue concerning Tren and it’s relationship to progesterone, prolactin, and gyno, very fascinating. There’s a lot of interesting questions to be answered here. I’ll continue to do research along these lines and post my findings here.

I’m going to ask Cy Willson to join in here and give us his thoughts.

Crowbar

Thanks to everyone for helping me out!

Ill let u know

[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
Guys, this is one of the many reasons I love T-Nation! This thread has turned into a nice brainstorm session. Thanks to everyone for joining in, and lets keep this going.

I find this whole issue concerning Tren and it’s relationship to progesterone, prolactin, and gyno, very fascinating. There’s a lot of interesting questions to be answered here. I’ll continue to do research along these lines and post my findings here.

I’m going to ask Cy Willson to join in here and give us his thoughts.

Crowbar[/quote]

Crowbar you are so right bro, this is one of those topics that has a myriad of different views!

I would love to get Cy’s views on this as well!

[quote]Sancho wrote:
crowbar524 wrote:
Guys, this is one of the many reasons I love T-Nation! This thread has turned into a nice brainstorm session. Thanks to everyone for joining in, and lets keep this going.

I find this whole issue concerning Tren and it’s relationship to progesterone, prolactin, and gyno, very fascinating. There’s a lot of interesting questions to be answered here. I’ll continue to do research along these lines and post my findings here.

I’m going to ask Cy Willson to join in here and give us his thoughts.

Crowbar

Crowbar you are so right bro, this is one of those topics that has a myriad of different views!

I would love to get Cy’s views on this as well!
[/quote]

Not sure really where people are wanting me to start, but I’ll go ahead. I personally haven’t known anyone who was using trenbolone, by itself, only to get gynecomastia. However, I have heard reports, but the fact that people often use aromatizing androgens (e.g., testosterone), GH/IGF-1 (can play a role in gynecomastia as well) only further complicates matters in terms of figuring out what the exact cause may be. More recent literature seems to at least lend credibility to the idea that trenbolone has at least some weak to moderate progestational activity. Now, if this is the cause, dopamine agonists, which lower prolactin, not progesterone, will do nothing to help with the condition. Two entirely separate hormones and issues.

If people are reporting positive results with dopamine agonists, this lends credence to the idea that prolactin, NOT to be confused with progesterone, is actually increasing with trenbolone use. As a side note, progesterone levels themselves don’t change anyhow, rather the androgen has agonistic activity at the receptor. That’s what I mean when I say progestational activity.

To make matters worse, there’s no way we’ll ever obtain data which looked at these things in humans so we’re forced to rely on data from other species. Often times their responses are likely reflective of what will happen in a human, but, then again, there are often cases where the response is completely different. Having said that, if the gynecomastia that some are experiencing is stemming from elevated prolactin levels, they should also be experiencing galactorrhea. If that’s not the case, it’s more likely something else.

Thank you, Cy -

I am asking this question out of pure ignorance - as it seems that there is no definitive protocol for preventive measures wrt tren.

I’m taking B6. All the research I’ve done - reading and talking to well respected vets say that taking B6 will lower prolactin, and therefore reduce the chances of tren gyno. If tren is progestenic in its action, how does lowering prolactin levels help?

There are guys that never get gyno on test cycles, but get gyno everytime that tren is added - is there a relationship between excess prolactin, excess estrogen and gyno? Specifically tren-gyno?

Cy, thanks for the response. I have a couple of questions:

  1. What is galactorrhea, and what are the symptoms?

  2. Do you know of any progesterone receptor antagonists? Would they even work to prevent Tren from exerting cross reactivity with the progesterone receptor?

Also, Cy can you explain the mechanism by which elevated prolactin levels cause gyno.

Thanks,

Crowbar

Looking at the top post of this thread, (and I believe Crowbar touched upon this) provides a good example of what I was referring to in terms of multiple androgen use making it harder to determine the cause of certain side effects. For example, the use of exogenous testosterone, which aromatizes to estradiol, could potentially raise prolactin levels. Now, is this a case where the individual would have had similar side effects without the trenbolone, or is it a case where the trenbolone is also increasing PRL, or is it a case where trenbolone is sensitizing the tissue to PRL? It’s difficult to say for certain.

It really helps if you read before asking questions - sorry for asking a question you already answered, Cy.

To second crowbar’s question - what is the relationship between prolactin levels and gyno?

This is my first trip down tren ace lane, and I’m probably way anal about gyno.

It sounds to me like if you lower prolactin levels and lower estrogen levels through B6 and letro or arimidex, then you pretty much have your bases covered.

[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
Cy, thanks for the response. I have a couple of questions:

  1. What is galactorrhea, and what are the symptoms?

  2. Do you know of any progesterone receptor antagonists? Would they even work to prevent Tren from exerting cross reactivity with the progesterone receptor?

Also, Cy can you explain the mechanism by which elevated prolactin levels cause gyno.

Thanks,

Crowbar[/quote]

  1. Galactorrhea can be seen in men with prolactin-induced gynecomastia, but this isn’t necessarily exclusive. Galactorrhea, in a man, is simply where you’ll literally secrete a milk-like substance from your nipples.
  2. RU 486 is a progesterone receptor antagonist but not a realistic choice nor something I’d recommend. Fulvestrant (Faslodex) can decrease PR expression, but again, not a realistic choice either.
  3. I believe the growth associated is directly attributed to a growth-promoting effect of prolactin itself upon the tissue. I realize some of the side effects from elevated prolactin are thought to be attributed to the effect upon the HPTA, but as far as I can remember, it’s a direct effect.

So, Cy, do you think it’s wise to use Dostinex either as a preventitive measure or to address the problem of elevated prolactin levels during a cycle of Tren?

Thanks,

Crowbar

[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
So, Cy, do you think it’s wise to use Dostinex either as a preventitive measure or to address the problem of elevated prolactin levels during a cycle of Tren?

Thanks,

Crowbar[/quote]

Crowbar,

I wouldn’t recommend using Dostinex (Cabergoline) as a prophylaxis at all.

As I’ve said before, I personally have never encountered anyone in person who’s actually experienced such a side effect, so I see no reason to use it as a prophylaxis. There’s still really nothing conclusive in my mind which demonstrates using trenbolone itself, elevates prolactin. Unless people using trenbolone, by itself, are consistently reporting elevated prolactin levels, as evidenced by blood draws, it’s difficult to say the problem is nailed down.

As I said, it could simply be a situation where it may sensitize the tissue to prolactin, so concurrent use with an androgen which aromatizes to estrogen or an estrogenic metabolite, could increase prolactin, hence the combination leads to such a side effect.

There isn’t enough data to say there’s a definite cause-effect relationship, so advocating a dopamine agonist as a prophylaxis is something I’d be far from comfortable recommending.

Nowhere in medicine do you see drug use as it exists in body building, which is why it’s so difficult to determine where side effects are stemming from. To further complicate matters, very few guys are working with physicians so monitoring blood work alone isn’t even a possibility.

So the answer is…there is no answer.

Why are the top three chemicals recommended Dostinex, Bromo, and RU-486?

This is very frustrating.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
So the answer is…there is no answer.

Why are the top three chemicals recommended Dostinex, Bromo, and RU-486?

This is very frustrating.[/quote]

Those three compounds are two dopamine agonists and as I’ve already said, RU-486 a progesterone receptor antagonist, although it’s not a completely selective compound, which is why I said it’s not something I’d consider using.

I would not use the appearance of drugs used on a steroid message board as a means of dictating what the correct approach should be.

There is not going to be any simple quick and easy answer, especially regarding trenbolone, an androgen which was never used in humans within the US. Without that, as I said in the previous post, you’re forced to rely upon anecdotal reports, and within those, sort through which have a valid application and if lucky enough, get some blood draws. I’m not saying that this isn’t an issue directly related to elevated prolactin levels, I’m simply saying there isn’t sufficient data, in my opinion, to warrant the idea of using dopamine agonists or various other compounds as a prophylaxis. These are drugs, not harmless candy.

[quote]Cy Willson wrote:

I would not use the appearance of drugs used on a steroid message board as a means of dictating what the correct approach should be.
[/quote]

My research going into this cycle included just a bit more work than simply skimming the message boards and picking out what looked good.

I talked with vets that had tren gyno - or at the very least exhibited signs of gyno while on tren. I took their advice.

Now, three weeks in - I find out that there may not even be such a thing as tren gyno. Surely you can understand the frustration.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Cy Willson wrote:

I would not use the appearance of drugs used on a steroid message board as a means of dictating what the correct approach should be.

My research going into this cycle included just a bit more work than simply skimming the message boards and picking out what looked good.

I talked with vets that had tren gyno - or at the very least exhibited signs of gyno while on tren. I took their advice.

Now, three weeks in - I find out that there may not even be such a thing as tren gyno. Surely you can understand the frustration.
[/quote]

Ok, last one before I retire.

I’m sure you did do much more research than that. I’m not saying you didn’t at all and I’m by no means faulting you. I had simply seen that you’d asked a couple of times on this thread why those three drugs are so popular if they aren’t addressing the problem. I was simply making a point to say not to use the popularity of use as a means of validating whether something is correct or not. If that were the case, we may as well include such ideas as using acetate esters when dieting “because they burn fat”, using methandriol because it “cleans out receptors” and a host of other misconceptions passed along over the years. Again, I realize that’s not what you did, I’m making a point in general for everyone.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying unequivocally that trenbolone can’t and doesn’t cause gynecomastia, I’m simply saying that there isn’t sufficient data at the present time to do the following:

  1. Confirm with certainty that trenbolone, when used by itself, causes gynecomastia
  2. Confirm that if indeed, trenbolone, when used by itself, causes gynecomastia, whether it’s from a progestational effect or by increasing prolactin, or by a combination, or by another mechanism
  3. Assuming we did know for certain that trenbolone causes gyno, because we don’t know the exact mechanism, there’s no definitive way we can pick a particular drug as a prophylaxis for preventing it. Because of this, there exists the possibility of unnecessary drug use.

I understand your frustration completely.

Cy, thanks for adding your expertise.

Crowbar

Thank you rainjack, Cy and crowbar :wink: