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Test, Tren, A-Dex + Gyno


#1

Hi folks..
I'm currently in the third week of my cutting cycle. Sorry for the bad English. Im 26y, 200 at about 10%, been working out for 11y.

My cycle:
500mg Test enanthate/week
75mg Trenbolone acetate EOD
0,5mg Armidex ED

I have noticed a swolen "thing" under my right nipple. It`s not very sore, but it feels a little bit more sore than usual. It almost feels like combination of a muscle triggerpoint and fat, and its not in the muscle, its in the area under my nipple.
Shal i decrease the dosages or shal i stop completley? What about only 100mg/tes/week and add winstrol to the trenbolone? Shal i increase the a-dx dose?

Have you got any advice or opinions?
Thanks


#2

Have you considered using letrozole?

Are you taking any B6 at all?

Those are good preventative measures against gyno - particularly prolactin induced gyno.

I don't know how one can tell the difference between regeular gyno and tren gyno, but if you have tren gyno, I'd get some dostinex asap.

But I am a newb, so please don't take my word for it.


#3

I would definately start taking Nolva NOW!!! 40mgs/day for at least a week then I'd knock it down to 20mgs/day


#4

Yes. I Get my nolva today! Hope its not to late. I hate my self for not havning nolva on hand.
Thanks


#5

I finaly got my nolvadex today
I am so happy! When I woke up this morning the breast tissue was feeling much better (before nolva!). I have not injectet testo enanthate in 6 days now, and I have increased the armidex dosage and added oral winstrol. Currently my cycle looks like this:

75mg tren acetate EOD
50mg winstrol ED (oral tablettes)
1mg armidex ED

I have now got the nolvadex and are going to run 40mg ED for the first few days to see if that stops the symptoms. But how shall I dose the armidex while on nolva? Shall I stop using it or shal I continiue on. I have enough nolva to continue on through out the cycle if thats whats the best alternative.

Can/shal I add a few mg of testo to the cycle if the nolva stops the symptoms? Just 100-150mg/week or so to keep the testo upp?

I have also got 1g of primobolan (real). Is it a good idea to finish the cycle of with this and winny before i start the PCT?
Usualy I use clomid for 3weeks (50/100/50). But how shal I do this now? Shal i use nolva along with clomid for PCT?

Sorry for asking so many stupid questions, I thought I had done my homework well, but obviously I was wrong

Thanks for helping me out.


#6

It seems to me that you may be particularly sensitive to gyno caused by the Test; I can't really say as I don't know your past history of AAS use. Have you used Test in the past without developing gyno? If so, in what dosages, and what kind and amount of AI's or anti-estrogens were you using? It kind of sounded like you may be new to AAS, so I don't know if you have any reference point.

You might want to increase the Arimidex to 1 mg. ED and use some Nolva along with it (~20 mg. ED), after you have taken care of your presently developing gyno--which I would treat very aggressively right now in order to keep it from worsening (60-80 mg. Nolva ED untill symptoms are gone).

After the gyno is under control and you have increased the arimidex to 1 mg. ED (and are using the Nolva at ~20 mg. ED), you could add some Test back in. Start around 400 mg. EW , and if you develop no problems you can increase the dosage; or, if it's too late in the cycle to add the Test back in, you can go with the Stanozolol (and, yes, I'd add the Primo too, as Stanozolol is rather mild).

Forget the Dostinex, you don't need it. If you're experiencing sexual sides from the Tren try some Proviron (~ 40-50 mg. ED--I really like this stuff. It has several properties that are very usefull, including allowing you to use lesser dosages of Test but obtain the same results (as Proviron a has strong affinity for SHBG, thus freeing up more androgens to exert their effects at the AR).

As far as PCT goes, I alternate the use of Clomid and Nolva like this:

PCT:

Week 1: day 1 Clomid, 300 mg. Days 2-7 Clomid, 150 mg. ED.

Week 2: Clomid 100 mg. ED

Week 3: Day 1 Nolva, 120 mg. Days 16-21 Nolva, 60 mg. ED

Week 4: Nolva, 40 mg. ED

I see no reason to dose your Clomid as 50/100/50--you want to hit your HPTA hard after a cycle in order to kick start your endogenous Test production. I also see no reason to use both Clomid and Nolva at the same time, as both work through essentially the same mechanism. I ALWAYS use the Clomid first, as I believe it to be the superior Test booster. For that matter you could just use Clomid for your PCT at something like 150/100/100/50.

Hope that helps,

Crowbar


#7

Hi Crowbar. Thanks for replying.

This is far from my first cycle. I have used testo at 1g/week along with only 0,25mg ari EOD. No symtoms at all. 1 year ago I did a cycle with the same amounts of testo and tren, but with less armidex, no symtoms.

I have increased the adex to 1mg/day, and the nolva to 60mg/day now. Thanks for your help

currently my cycle looks like this:
75mg tren EOD
50mg Winny ED
1mg Armidex ED
60mg Nolvadex ED

//Win


#8

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#9

If you have progesterone induced gyno, you might as well just throw the nolva in the trash for all the good it will do you.

Tren gyno must be fought with dostinex, bromo, or ru-486.

If you are taking tren, I would highly suggest you start taking B6 AT LEAST 400mg ed.

Tren gyno and regular gyno are two totally different animals.


#10

There is some evidence that Tren has cross reactivity with the Progesterone receptor; however, it does NOT raise progesterone levels, therefore drugs such as Dostinex will be useless as Dostinex lowers Prolactin levels--it has no effect, as far as I know, as a Progesterone receptor antagonist.

PS, the best way to lower Prolactin levels is to lower estrogen levels, as the two are directly related.

Crowbar


#11

How fast does the nolvadex work? I cant see any reduction in the symtoms. This is my 4th day no nolva...
Do you think I shal skip the tren and go for winny/primo only, to see if the gyno is due to the tren?


#12

There is a study that shows, if estrogen levels are kept at bay then progesterone levels will also be kept low. There is a direct correlation between the two. So, Crowbar is very correct on this.

Using Nolva at higher dosages will work at getting estrogen down and subsequently prolactin levels down as well. Also, raising the Arimadex dose will also work wonders.

Once you have gyno under control start lowering the dosages downward very steadily.

And I may suggest next time using Letro for your AI, as I just saw a good study(I'll post it later today or tomorrow) that showed it lowered estrogen plus progesterone levels. Even though Letro is a very powerful drug, it may be needed in some very sensitive individuals as yourself.

If all this doesn't work then you will have to resort to getting Bromo, Dostinex or even better RU486*gasp*! But all the info you have gotten here should help you out Powerman!

Believe me Crowbar the Dostinex will work wonders and stop juicy nips! Along with some other.....interesting sexual side effects that would make Ron Jeremy and Peter North jealous!

Although I don't know if there are studies proving this theory, I know in the real world it has worked for my brother, some guys on other boards, as well as myself. I will look for a study that directly deals with the subject of this thread though.

Also,I used the Bromo and Dostinex before I found out about the information on Letro. So, even then Powerman I would suggest if the higher dosages of Nolva + Arima don't work, get some Letro. And only use any of the anti-progestinics drugs as a very very last resort.

And also, there is a transdermal creme in the works Arima/Letro I believe that is to be applied on the chest area that is affected by gyno. Maybe this will be a huge breakthrough. It's still in the testing phases, but it sounds promising!

Good luck Powerman!


#13

Sancho, how's it goin'? Your right that Dostinex will stop leaking nips, as it lowers Prolactin levels. My point was that it is usless to combat Tren's cross reactivity with the Progesterone receptor.

Many people still mistakenly believe that Tren raises Progesterone levels, and that drugs such as Dostinex will lower Progesterone levels; well, they are wrong on both counts.

Crowbar


#14

Crowbar -

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say - or else I didn't say it right.

If you already have tren-gyno, i.e. are already displaying the symptoms of prolactin/progesterone induced gyno, I don't think Nolvadex will help remove the symptoms. Dostinex will. Dostinex is an anti-progestinic drug used to treat to treat progestinic symptoms.

Dostinex will not work as a preventative - it only works to fight the symptoms of tren gyno.

I hope this makes more sense.


#15

Rainjack, That's my point, Dostinex is NOT an anti-progestinic drug in that it has no effect on Progesterone levels. Even if it did lower Progesterone levels it wouldn't help as Tren does not raise Progesterone levels. Dostinex has no effect, as far as I know, as a Progesterone receptor antagonist; therefore it would not stop Tren's possible cross reactivity with the Progesterone receptor.

As far as Prolactin goes, yes Dostinex will lower Prolactin levels; but so will lowereing estrogen levels--estrogen and prolactin exist in direct relationship with one another.

For what it's worth, I've discussed this very issue with Cy Willson. He is also of the opinion that Dostinex is worthless as a means of combating "Tren gyno".

Crowbar


#16

I stand corrected Crowbar. A simple google turned up dostinex as a prolactin inhibitor - not a pregesterone inhibitor.

Why then, in your opinion, is Dostinex one of the top three drugs reached for when tren gyno surfaces?

Look on any BB board - it's Dostinex, Bromo, and RU-486. Is it possible that the Dostinex can remmove the symptoms of tren gyno, even though it is not indicated to be effective? Lot's of guys have told me - ones that have had tren gyno - that Dostinex works great.

It is still my contention that Nolva is worthless when you are already exhibiting the signs of tren gyno.


#17

Rainjack, first here's an interesting forum response I found from Bill Roberts:

The only reference I know of discussing
prolactin with regard to trenbolone administration (Res Vet Sci 1981 Jan;30(1):7-13) says that prolactin did NOT increase on trenbolone administration.

Proof of binding to a receptor is not proof of activity. For example, ANTAGONISTS bind well to a receptor but don't have activity.

The only reference I have read discussing whether or not trenbolone (as opposed to a very different compound, "allyl trenbolone")
has progestagenic activity was that it does not, in the veterinary literature.

Highly gyno-prone individuals use injectable trenbolone acetate
all the time and love the stuff. I couldn't begin to count how many, and myself have zero reports of anyone getting gyno from injectable TA.

Now, this whole issue of Tren gyno is very muddled, I don't think there is enough research on it to conclude anything with much certainty.

I believe it's probable that Tren does possess cross reactivity with the Progesterone receptor, at least in suseptible individuals; which means that you would need a progesterone receptor antagonist drug.

I also believe that some individuals who are using Tren with other aromatizable AAS confuse the raised estrogen levels--and therefore raised prolactin levels--as being caused by the Tren, when, in fact, they are being caused by the other aromatizable AAS. It's also possible that increased estrogen and/or prolactin levels--again, due to the other aromatizable AAS--could exacerbate the cross reactivity of Tren with the progesterone receptor. Or, perhaps, just the opposite; that is, maybe Tren's cross reactivity with the progesterone receptor somehow exacerbates the effects of elevated estrogen/prolactin on breast tissue.

Finally, I suppose once "Tren gyno" has become apparent traditional anti-estrogens may be insufficient for certain sensitive individuals. Perhaps Dostinex is simply more effective--or at least quicker--in lowering prolactin levels than traditional anti-estrogens. Thus, the more obvious symptoms of gyno would be helped by the Dostinex--i.e., the sore, swollen, leaky nips.

I think if you're prone to developing "gyno" while on Tren and other aromatizable AAS, you should aggressively tackle the estrogen problem BEFORE it gets out of hand. Maybe start an AI and Nolva a week before you actually start your cycle. Also, more prone individuals may need to opt for stronger AIs, such as Letro.

Crowbar


#18

Great post crowbar -

Thanks. I guess. I mean - is it enough to know that no one knows?

I'm not slamming you at all. It is just frustrating to a certain degree that "tren-gyno" is largely an unknown.

I am on letro for the very reason you cite. More specifically, I am using converted synovex, and want to make sure my estrogen levels stay in check. I'm also taking 480mg B6 ed to help control the prolactin levels.

I'm still way paranoid about gyno.


#19

Rainjack,

That is a really high dose of B6. While it is not common, chronic ingestion of B6 in excess of 100 mg has been associated with peripheral neuropathy as a result of damage to the dorsal root ganglia. Headaches are often associated with prolonged high dose B6.

If you are taking this high dose for long, you may want to consider using Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (P5P), the active form of B6 as from what I've seen, there is much less chance of toxicity symptoms.

Take care,

Ryan


#20

From the research I've done, I found that generally dosages at 500mg and less don't show as much of the toxicity as it does when you get above that level. From what I've read it seems that 600mg is the danger level.

Are there any other warning signs besides the headaches to watch for? I have been at this dose for 2.5 weeks and have not had a headache yet.