T Nation

Test Tapering Cycle


#1

There has been a lot of recent posts that have dealt with tapering with Test. The posts have all been excellent and well informed (especially P-22, Juice, Test and Bushy's contributions), but unfortunately the information is split between four or five seperate posts. Being dyslexic I'm struggling a bit to try and collate all these seperate posts into one definitive answer. I find the subject really interesting and would love to incorporate it into my next cycle.

Would someone be kind enough to post what they feel would be [b]THE[/b] definitive mass cycle incorporating Test tapering (assuming full access to any AAS currently availible).

I really appreciate any feedback you give. And thanks to everyone for making this site so informative and bloody addictive;-D


#2

Tapering off steroids is not useful, in any way, shape, or form.


#3

I can't improve on Strasser's Gramabol. I've never done it but judging the results I get from using 1/3 of his recommended dosage it couldn't do anything but pack it on. Anadrol-50 is a joke red blood cell multiplier NOT a anabolic tissue builder.

I NEVER have used an anti E but just mite while on the Gramabol.


#4

Can you give me more detail? Prisoner 22's theory on tapering off on Test seemed logical, but I'd like to hear your side of the argument if you have time.


#5

Sure...here it goes:

100mgs/week of test is enough to totally shut off your natural production (takes 5-6 weeks), as is 100mgs of deca (all it takes is one shot).

So when you are tapering, guess how much of your natural hormonal level is coming back?

None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

You're just delaying PCT, and not making gains from the small amounts you're taking. It's a waste of time and money. I'd rather just go off cold turkey and run an aggressive PCT.


#6

Did you read the Mass Stack post by Wiggum88? That's were various posts arose praising the virtues of the Test taper.


#7

So gradually tapering off testosterone, is a waste of time because you said so. Great argument buddy.


#8

No. It's a waste of time because even miniscule amounts of most steroids are enough to keep your body from producing any testosterone of it's own.

In this study a mere 100mgs of Test suppresses natural levels totally, by week 5 or 6:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9394096&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum

1: J Investig Med. 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7.

Testosterone suppression of the HPT axis.

MacIndoe JH, Perry PJ, Yates WR, Holman TL, Ellingrod VL, Scott SD.

Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, University of Iowa, Iowa City, USA.

BACKGROUND: Although studies have demonstrated the suppression of normal gonadal function in the experimental setting, the specific mechanisms by which androgenic-anabolic steroids impact male gonadal function remain ill defined. Following 2 consecutive weekly injections of an identically appearing testosterone cypionate (TC) placebo, subjects were randomized to a TC dose of 100 mg/wk, 250 mg/wk, or 500 mg/wk.

Following the last weekly injection of active agent the subjects received 12 consecutive weeks of TC placebo injections. RESULTS: Spermatogenesis was impaired by each of the doses of TC employed in this study, but the observed decreases in, sperm count were neither strictly dose dependent nor consistent between individuals treated with the same dose.

Basal leuteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) became undetectable 2 weeks after the start of 250 and 500 mg/wk TC injections and were lost within 5 to 6 weeks of starting 100 mg doses. Pituitary gonadotropin responses to leutinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) disappeared more slowly with FSH responses being lost 1 to 3 weeks after the loss of basal FSH activity.

Leuteinizing hormone responses to LHRH appeared to be suppressed last, disappearing 4 to 6 weeks after FSH responses to LHRH. CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug treatment.

And in this study, 100mgs of Deca (a single shot) suppressed natural testosterone levels to nothing also:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3051&uid=9103484&db=pubmed&url=http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=9103484

1: J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1997 Apr;281(1):93-102.

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in oil vehicle: effects of ester, injection site and injection volume.

Minto CF, Howe C, Wishart S, Conway AJ, Handelsman DJ.

Department of Anaesthesia and Pain Management, Royal North Shore Hospital, University of Sydney, Australia.

We studied healthy men who underwent blood sampling for plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin measurements before and for 32 days after a single i.m. injection of 100 mg of nandrolone ester in arachis oil.

Twenty-three men were randomized into groups receiving nandrolone phenylpropionate (group 1, n = 7) or nandrolone decanoate (group 2, n = 6) injected into the gluteal muscle in 4 ml of arachis oil vehicle or nandrolone decanoate in 1 ml of arachis oil vehicle injected into either the gluteal (group 3, n = 5) or deltoid (group 4, n = 5) muscles.

Plasma nandrolone, testosterone and inhibin concentrations were analyzed by a mixed-effects indirect response model. Plasma nandrolone concentrations were influenced (P < .001) by different esters and injection sites, with higher and earlier peaks with the phenylpropionate ester, compared with the decanoate ester.

After nandrolone decanoate injection, the highest bioavailability and peak nandrolone levels were observed with the 1-ml gluteal injection. Plasma testosterone concentrations were also influenced (P < .001) by the ester and injection site, with the most rapid, but briefest, suppression being due to the phenylpropionate ester, whereas the most sustained suppression was achieved with the 1-ml gluteal injection.

Plasma inhibin concentrations were also significantly influenced by injection volume and site, with the lowest nadir occurring after the nandrolone decanoate 1-ml gluteal injection.

Thus, the bioavailability and physiological effects of a nandrolone ester in an oil vehicle are greatest when the ester is injected in a small (1 ml vs. 4 ml) volume and into the gluteal vs. deltoid muscle. We conclude that the side-chain ester and the injection site and volume influence the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nandrolone esters in an oil vehicle in men.

ERGO, when you are "TAPERING" your body is NOT RECOVERING AT ALL. A mere 100mgs will keep you 100% suppressed at the end of your cycle!

Thus, I feel justified to conclude that tapering will NOT do anything to keep gains, or speed your recovery. Tapering will provide a period where you aren't taking enough steroids to do anything, and yet still not recovering natural hormonal function.

Tapering will be a non-productive period that keeps your hormones suppressed and doesn't "ease" your transition into PCT at all, because you are NOT RECOVERING ONE IOTA OF YOUR NATURAL HORMONES while you are tapering.


#9

I agree ^100%

MK


#10

100mgs has NEVER done a damn thing to my production....I can't even tell I injected anything. This is clearly wrong. Do any smoochers agree w/ me...I hope so OR I'll "watch" U...


#11

"CONCLUSIONS: Exogenous testosterone-mediated inhibitory influences on the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis were reversed following the cessation of drug treatment."

Well we know the doses of 500mg/ week, 200 mg/ week, and 100 mg per week are suppressive. That is quite clear. What the study doesn't tell you is at what point, the hpta begins to function again.

This does not matter however, as the study showed suppression was reversed following drug treatment.

At what point exactly does this happen? We don't need to know that to know that it does. As long as you continue to gradually taper down you will inevitably reach that point.

I personally reached that point at about 50mg/ week. I began experiencing testicular pain (this after a 10 month cycle using no hcg) At this point over a two week period I experienced testicular hypertrophy. At this point I went completely off and experienced no reduction in libido.

This is my experience and as I have said before, I have tried every form of pct, and in theory, and in my practice, the taper, for longer cycles by far, worked the best.

Now tapering is accepted as standard practice in the medical comunity during cessation of drug therapy. We do it with opiods, we do it with corticosteroids, we give benzodiazipines for alcohol withdrawal, and nicotine patches for patients who are heavy smokers who can't smoke due to their recent surgery. Avoiding withdrawal symptoms is the goal, which can make someone very ill even causing death. Of course this is worst case senarios, but a hormone crash is very tramatic and unpleasant to the life of anyone who has experienced it.

As a health care proffesional I am quite aware of all this as I have seen all kinds of withdrawal symptoms.
Now someone tell me why a bunch of 'Gym genius's' without the training and experience in pharmocology and pathophysiology, know better then I do about what is the healthiest approach to post cycle therapy????


#12

Actually, the studies do. Read the whole thing. The level of exogenous androgen present mirrors the level of testosterone production...i.e. testosterone production only begins to come back, when the anabolic steroid level begins to fall below a certain threshold. And that level is below 100mgs, easily. It's actually, near nothing.

So....to begin bringing back your natural hormonal levels, according to those studies, you want to ELIMINATE as much steroid from your body, as quickly as possible, to begin the recovery process.

It's all in there, in the studies.

Sorry thats all I have time for on this topic. But I will note that Duchaine, Llewellyn, etc...have all come to the same conclusion regarding tapering as me. In other words...well, take that as you want, but 3 people who make (or made) their livings writing about steroids all agree that tapering is useless.


#13

Thanks to evryone who has discussed this. I'm going to do some further research before my next cycle and I appreciate everyone's input.


#14

Using Duchaine and Llewellyn as examples of experts means nothing to me. All I know is that one is dead and the other has advocated massive doses of hcg for pct, a practice I see as counterproductive.

Cy Willson has on the other hand advocated a testosterone taper, and I respect his views much more then those other two 'experts' as his theories and advice always are founded on harm reduction.

The bottom line is all the studies show is that 100 mg per week is suppresive, but knowing that the hpta is just another negative feedback loop - basic physiology, nobody can deny that at some point as serum testosterone levels fall the hpta will be stimulated to begin producing LH again.

Tapering as I have repeated is a STANDARD from of cessation of drug therapy in medicine. We do it with corticosteroids, we do it with opiods, and other drugs to avoid withdrawal symptoms.
This is the reason for tapering - to avoid the worst of withdrawal - the hormone crash. The body gets used to the drugs and adjusts. Removing the drugs too quickly will cause side effects. Withdawal of steroids will cause achne, can cause depression which is also related to loss of motivation, loss of libido, and loss of confidence. Yes recovery in full of the hpta may take longer, but it will be easier and healthier, both physically and mentally for the user. This you absolutely can not disprove.

Oh, and I might add that I have been asked to write articles for T-Nation as well, but I am too involved with other committments to do so.