Test Taper/HPTA restart Log

[PAINTRAINDave]

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Clomifene is far superior at illiciting natural LH production. [/quote]

There are some studies claiming the opposite, and that found that Clomid tends to reduce pituitary sensitivity to GnRH whereas Nolva tends to improve it.
[/quote]

All the literature I have found states that Clomifene results in higher LH levels, both in vitro and in the presence of GnRH (aka Triprorelin).

Please post the related studies you have found, I would be quite pleased to read them!

Thanks,
-PTD

[PAINTRAINDave]

As for SB, I said it a few months back, and I’ll say it again: you need to come off for good, or dedicate to TRT. Indecision is worse than a wrong decision.

25mg of Test Prop EOD combined with HCG is going to be almost 100% suppressive. You will not recover at those dosages, regardless of SERM usage.

Either taper down Test and HCG, and use a low dose SERM for a period of months -OR- run a standard stasis taper, and run low dose AI for the foreseeable future to elevate T and minimize E2.

You’ve been living on a high for quite some time now, and its time to come down. Steroids ARE addictive, and its time to make the choice. I believe for you, TRT is the best option. I can feel your stress about the situation over the fucking internet. I believe alot of your symptoms are psychosomatic, the stress response is very real, and probably accounts for 90% + of your symptoms. I think once you dedicate to TRT, you will actually feel a massive sense of relief over the whole situation.

Good luck man,
-PTD

[SwD]

Good advice PT, except Singhbuilder wants kids. So I suggest going completely off - in a sane way. At the very least, he can freeze some sperm then. TRT is forever (though I am not convinced 100% of that approach). So he should do it now rather than later.

[PAINTRAINDave]

TRT does not preclude fertility, and (assuming the patient was capable before) it will almost always return after 3-6 months of discontinuation without complication (except feeling like a bag a shit for the duration).

There are alot of stories of TRT people having sperm analysis showing ~1M/mL with low motility and morphology improving to 40M/ml+ with good motility and morphology and conceiving naturally. Otherwise between IUI and IVF, and now with Testicular Retrieval, they can surely pull a couple thousand good swimmers out of your balls, even if you’ve shot enough crank to sterilize an Elephant over your lifting career, and voila; offspring.

Jesus christ they can recombinate DNA so that two lesbians can have genetic offspring…

I honestly wouldn’t worry about it.

If you’re at the stage where you’re contemplating kids with your partner, then you should be able to be honest about fertility, expectations and past drug usage with them.

The bottom line is most guys find it emasculating to have to go see a ‘fertility doctor’, and that’s the real problem, not an actual loss of fertility.

-PTD

[seekonk]

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Clomifene is far superior at illiciting natural LH production. [/quote]

There are some studies claiming the opposite, and that found that Clomid tends to reduce pituitary sensitivity to GnRH whereas Nolva tends to improve it.
[/quote]

All the literature I have found states that Clomifene results in higher LH levels, both in vitro and in the presence of GnRH (aka Triprorelin).

Please post the related studies you have found, I would be quite pleased to read them!

Thanks,
-PTD [/quote]

See below: 20 mg Nolva was comparable in effectiveness with 150 mg Clomid, but Clomid (and not Nolva) produced a DECREASE in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH). Also, many people who cannot tolerate the side effects of Clomid do fine on Nolva.

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
Abstract
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with “idiopathic” oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

[PAINTRAINDave]

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Clomifene is far superior at illiciting natural LH production. [/quote]

There are some studies claiming the opposite, and that found that Clomid tends to reduce pituitary sensitivity to GnRH whereas Nolva tends to improve it.
[/quote]

All the literature I have found states that Clomifene results in higher LH levels, both in vitro and in the presence of GnRH (aka Triprorelin).

Please post the related studies you have found, I would be quite pleased to read them!

Thanks,
-PTD [/quote]

See below: 20 mg Nolva was comparable in effectiveness with 150 mg Clomid, but Clomid (and not Nolva) produced a DECREASE in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH). Also, many people who cannot tolerate the side effects of Clomid do fine on Nolva.

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
Abstract
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with “idiopathic” oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
[/quote]

Not to be dismissive, but 150mg of Chlomid is far too high a dose to be considered, considering 50mgs of Chlomid is considered to be on par with 20mg of Tamoxifen.

Here is some more recent literature showing that 100mgs of Clomifene Citrate a day, INCREASED LH sensitivity in vitro from a single blast of HCG:

Effect of clomiphene treatment on the human testicular response to a single dose of hCG.
Martikainen H, Leinonen P, Vihko R
International Journal of Andrology [2008, 1981, 4(6):628-638]

In group 1 [Clomid after HCG], the steroidogenic response was identical to that found previously in untreated men. In group 2[Clomid before and after HCG], the 7-day treatment with clomiphene citrate led to elevated serum concentrations of LH, FSH, pregnenolone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, androstenedione, testosterone, 5�?�±-dihydrotestosterone and oestradiol.

Cheers,
-PTD

hijack over! Sorry SB

[rds63799]

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
just a thought SB, do you think perhaps the libido thing could be psychological?

could just be that on cycle you expect your libido to be high so it is, then when you’re off you expect it to crash so it does.

do you have a long term partner? Or are you hooking up with strangers?

I read sometihng over on PM where they were talking about libido problems post cycle, and one of the mods said “If you are thinking more about what you’re sticking in than where you’re sticking it, you’ll have problems”[/quote]

Yes I think psychological factors play a big part.
I have a long term partner and hooking up aswell… LOL dont judge me!

Me and VT spoke about this sometime ago as he has good theories on the penis (gotta expose you VT haha!) and its blood flow. We concluded my problem was phycological.
Consider this, how is it possible to go flaccid on 250mg of Viagra? Yes it has happened to me.
However it is only with a new partner, there is no problem with the long-term partner.

SB[/quote]

Lol! I’m not here to judge mate. Dirty boy.

I think Dave gave you some good advice about jut going on TRT for the peace of mind it’ll give you. There’s definitely a messing-with-your-head aspect that’ll be hard to get around.

The fertility thing scares me too. On one hand you have guys who’ve been blasting non-stop for years who have like 5 kids, and on the other hand you have guys who are sterile as a mule because of it. It’s definitely a risk but I think with use of hCG/hMG you can minimise the potential dangers.

Have you considered hMG? It’s not cheap but it certainly seems to work.

[buddaboy]

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:
Clomifene is far superior at illiciting natural LH production. [/quote]

There are some studies claiming the opposite, and that found that Clomid tends to reduce pituitary sensitivity to GnRH whereas Nolva tends to improve it.
[/quote]

All the literature I have found states that Clomifene results in higher LH levels, both in vitro and in the presence of GnRH (aka Triprorelin).

Please post the related studies you have found, I would be quite pleased to read them!

Thanks,
-PTD [/quote]

See below: 20 mg Nolva was comparable in effectiveness with 150 mg Clomid, but Clomid (and not Nolva) produced a DECREASE in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH). Also, many people who cannot tolerate the side effects of Clomid do fine on Nolva.

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.
Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.
Abstract
The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with “idiopathic” oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.
[/quote]

Not to be dismissive, but 150mg of Chlomid is far too high a dose to be considered, considering 50mgs of Chlomid is considered to be on par with 20mg of Tamoxifen.

Here is some more recent literature showing that 100mgs of Clomifene Citrate a day, INCREASED LH sensitivity in vitro from a single blast of HCG:

Effect of clomiphene treatment on the human testicular response to a single dose of hCG.
Martikainen H, Leinonen P, Vihko R
International Journal of Andrology [2008, 1981, 4(6):628-638]

In group 1 [Clomid after HCG], the steroidogenic response was identical to that found previously in untreated men. In group 2[Clomid before and after HCG], the 7-day treatment with clomiphene citrate led to elevated serum concentrations of LH, FSH, pregnenolone, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, androstenedione, testosterone, 5�??�?�±-dihydrotestosterone and oestradiol.

Cheers,
-PTD

hijack over! Sorry SB
[/quote]

Sorry, just to clarify: back in the day when I used to come off I experimented with various PCT protocols and found that an aggressive PCT consisting of Clomid (instead of Nolvadex I found clomid better and did not get ANY problematic sides from it) @150mg ED for 10 days, then 100mg ED 10 days, down to 50mg per day for 10 days worked the most effectively FOR ME THOUGH, I obviously cannot speak for others.

[Singhbuilder]

PTD, thanks for the advice and no need to apologise.
You are right, the decision needs to be made, either come off and stay off or go on TRT.
I am going to come off which is why I started the taper, however I will give it roughly 7-8 months to see how I feel and go from there. I am quite positive that I should be back to normal after such a time period.

rds, I have looked into HMG yes, it seems to work as an analog of FSH I think and can be costly like you mentioned. It will most probably be my saviour IF I have to go on TRT and want to concieve. I have looked into sperm freezing also, but for me it is not an option cost-wise.
On the other hand I am also looking to go into a professional sport which will be tested hence another reason I want to come off.

UPDATE:
I am currently on 24mg EOD of Test Prop/Mast Prop (so 12mg each?) giving a total of 48mg each of TP and MP a week.
Next week this will be dropped to 20mg EOD and I will taper off hCG in conjuction with the 20mg of NOLVA ED. Cannot get clomid at the moment but if I do I will use it at 50mg ED with the nolva.

After I am completely off hCG and AAS, I will do a shot of Triptorelin and continue the SERM but before this I will do a blood test.

FEELINGS SO FAR:
LIBIDO OK
ENERGY VERY LOW
AGGRESSION INCREASED
NO DEPRESSION
SOFT ERECTIONS
MORNING WOOD PRESENT

SB

[Singhbuilder]

UPDATE:

Currently on 20mg of Prop/Mast EOD with 275iu hCG E3D.
So thats a total of:

30mg Prop/wk
30mg Mast/wk
550iu hCG/wk

Have also started 20mg Nolva ED, and running 120mcg Clen just to keep off any fat from junk cravings.

FEELINGS SO FAR:
SEVERE LETHARGY
LIBIDO LOWER
MORNING WOOD PRESENT
CARDIO/STAMINA DECREASED
WEIGHT MAINTAINED

So tired…!

SB

[niksamaras]

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
UPDATE:

Currently on 20mg of Prop/Mast EOD with 275iu hCG E3D.
So thats a total of:

30mg Prop/wk
30mg Mast/wk
550iu hCG/wk

Have also started 20mg Nolva ED, and running 120mcg Clen just to keep off any fat from junk cravings.

FEELINGS SO FAR:
SEVERE LETHARGY
LIBIDO LOWER
MORNING WOOD PRESENT
CARDIO/STAMINA DECREASED
WEIGHT MAINTAINED

So tired…!

SB[/quote]

Hang in there buddy. This must suck, but I think you will do fine with restarting your HTPA.

[rds63799]

SB how long are you going to do the taper for?

[Singhbuilder]

[quote]niksamaras wrote:

[quote]Singhbuilder wrote:
UPDATE:

Currently on 20mg of Prop/Mast EOD with 275iu hCG E3D.
So thats a total of:

30mg Prop/wk
30mg Mast/wk
550iu hCG/wk

Have also started 20mg Nolva ED, and running 120mcg Clen just to keep off any fat from junk cravings.

FEELINGS SO FAR:
SEVERE LETHARGY
LIBIDO LOWER
MORNING WOOD PRESENT
CARDIO/STAMINA DECREASED
WEIGHT MAINTAINED

So tired…!

SB[/quote]

Hang in there buddy. This must suck, but I think you will do fine with restarting your HTPA.[/quote]

Thanks for the support niksamaras!

SB

[Singhbuilder]

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
SB how long are you going to do the taper for?[/quote]

Most probably around 7 weeks. I dont mind being suppressed for an extra couple of weeks if it means a better chance of recovery and also being able to concentrate through exams.

Currently sitting at 22mg EOD, next week will be 20, then 18, 15, 10 then off.
After I am off, will taper the hCG, wait around 5 days for everything to clear and do a shot of Trip and continue SERM therapy.

SB

[SwD]

Shouldn’t you stop HCG way before? I’ve read it is somewhat suppressive on its own, and we use it on cycle to keep the testes “woken up”, but after the cycle and stasis period, I’d say even a few weeks before going into the taper, you want your balls to come to “on their own”. The taper is like a “dimmer approach” so they do wake up progressively. HCG use would hinder that. Anyway, that’s how I understand it.

[Singhbuilder]

[quote]SwD wrote:
Shouldn’t you stop HCG way before? I’ve read it is somewhat suppressive on its own, and we use it on cycle to keep the testes “woken up”, but after the cycle and stasis period, I’d say even a few weeks before going into the taper, you want your balls to come to “on their own”. The taper is like a “dimmer approach” so they do wake up progressively. HCG use would hinder that. Anyway, that’s how I understand it.

[/quote]

In theory that is the correct way of doing it, but if I stop hCG within a couple of days they atrophy to a very small size. After the hCG shot they are full and plump, so I would like to run the hCG past the androgens to ensure I do not have suppressive levels of AAS to cause atrophy. My reasoning for this is that the testes will not respond to the SERM LH induction if they are atrophied, I have no research to confirm this but I read it somewhere a while ago.

SB

[system]

Hey man been following your thread closely and I hope all goes well with you man

[Singhbuilder]

[quote]BUDs wrote:
Hey man been following your thread closely and I hope all goes well with you man[/quote]

Thanks BUDs.

UPDATE:

Feeling as tired as before but I suppose I am getting used to it so its not too bad.
Classic sign of Low T I usually get is a Flu, I am currently suffering from it now so it doesnt help.

Currently on:

19mg EOD Test Prop/Mast Prop
250iu hCG E4D
20mg Nolva ED

Going to incorporate 5000iu Vitamin D when it arrives.

Feelings so far:
Morning wood present
No depression but ambition has decreased (ambition to excel in the sport I originally decided to come off because of)
Libido decreased but stil present
Weight maintained, not much muscle loss
More arguements with the missus lol!

SB

[Singhbuilder]

Ok I seriously need you guys’ advice now.
However please try to be as honest as possible (I know we are in the steroid section and most of us love these drugs and will back them but consider my situation).

So basically I am in two-minds right now, I am considering not coming-off for another 4-5 months till my Medicine degree is complete.
The reason for this is the tiredness I am already feeling, I am getting no work done I just want to sleep.
On top of this I have received some previous grades and found out I failed 2 modules so I will have to retake these and cannot afford to be unproductive in the coming months.

My question is this, should I cruise till my degree is complete and then reattempt to taper off or bite the bullet and remain on the taper now with the possibility of failing the degree and having to retake?

Please put yourself in my position, I know for a lot of you TRT was the best decision YOU made for YOURSELF, however in my position (not previously being hypogonadal) what is the best thing to do?

SB

[system]

That’s a tough call man. I can see why you would want to stay on longer but you also got to think about how much harder it will be to recover. I think if it were me I would bite the bullet and come off.