T Nation

Test Prop/Masteron Cycle, Gyno Prone Guy


#1

Hey guys - I'm interested in trying my second cycle and was hoping that I could get some feedback.

Stats:

36 years old
185 pounds
Not sure about bf% but I think it's around 15%.
5'11"
34" waist
15" arms

History: I've been training off and on since I was a teenager - I've been training HARD for the past 3-5 years or so. Just to give you an idea of where I am (it's not spectacular but I do everything with "perfect form" and slowly to prevent any injuries and I try to pull off at least 8 reps in any set), I leg press about 400-500 pounds, I curl 100 pounds standing curl bar, I can press 85-90 pound dumbells, head cave 80-90 pound curl bar.

I've done one cycle with test cyp at 350mgs/wk for about 6 weeks - got some good gains (I thought) but I was not happy with my swollen breasts. Had to introduce Nolva about a week in - it helped but I think my problem was that I already had some pubertal gyno that I had not noticed before so I have to be really careful about that in my cycle.

Goal: I want to use AAS to LOOK GOOD around the pool and fill out the arms of my t-shirts really well. I would also like to increase my maximum weights in the gym. I would like to increase my weight to about 200 pounds but keep my 34 inch waist.

Proposal:

8 week cycle
Test prop 100mg EOD (for mass)
Masteron (prop) 100mg EOD (in the same needle - is this a bad idea to inject 2mL into the same injection point? Will it physically tear the muscle too much?) (purpose of this one is to keep or reduce my bf% during the cycle and give me some extra estrogen protection)
Nolvadex 20mg ED throughout (it's already in my system at this dosage) and continue for a couple of weeks afterwards.

I don't think I should use arimidex or letro during the cycle since I my levels of Nolva are already there and I should be protected - but I am open to suggestions - I cannot be too careful about my gyno getting worse because I seem to be sensitive to it.

I don't think an 8 week cycle calls for HCG since it's a relatively short cycle and relatively low dosages (so my balls shouldn't shut down too badly) and I want to keep my estrogen levels down. But again, I am open to suggestions.

I want to stay away from clomid because I have heard that it can affect vision and that could be a real problem for me since I've had laser surgery and my eyes are not great as it is. Bottom line is I would prefer not to take the chance if it is not necessary.


#2

IMO:

Use more test. 500/week at a bare minimum, even with the masteron. In fact, I’d save the loot on the masteron and buy more test.

If you are gyno prone/estro sensitive, you need to be using an AI. Period.

8 weeks is plenty long. You will be shut down. Use HCG during cycle to decrease recovery time during pct.

Oh yeah… whats your pct plan?

My .02 cents


#3

and also: if your only goal is to look good around the pool and fill out your t-shirts, you have to assess if you can get there without AAS. Are your diet and training locked in? From your description of your training, I would say you can make some pretty damn impressive gains just by changing up your training.


#4

Your cycle sucks.

As previously mentioned - you NEED an AI. Tamoxifen is not enough and is what was used before AI’s were around and while they were only available to the filthy rich and/or pro’s.

How can you on the one hand say you are very careful about gyno - and then on the other dismiss the necessity for an AI. THEY ARE AN ESSENTIAL ANCILLARY FOR ANY AROMATISING STEROID CYCLE FOR EVERY MAN ON THE PLANET. Hows that?

I would suggest 75mg of T a day with 100mg of Drost a day.

This is a very nice cycle, not too much oestrogen and what there is, will be wholly controllable with said AI.

700mg of Mast is high i admit - but luscious IME. (Real) Mast is a little rarer than it should be IME so unless you have total faith in your supplier, you will want to have a solid back up plan.

Use Tamoxifen after the cycle to help you recover.

6-8 weeks on that and you will be very happy with the results. As long as you can eat and train effectively - if not get those sorted first then run the cycle.


#5

Okay,

New proposal:

Weeks 1-8: Test Prop 75mg/day and Masteron 100mg/day
Weeks 1-8: HCG 500iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-8: Arimidex 1mg/day (I know 0.5mg/day could be sufficient but I’m paranoid…)

PCT
Week 9: Arimidex 1mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 10: Arimidex 0.5mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 11: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 12: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Alternatively, I was also considering to incorporate all the typical ancillaries in the PCT but precede it by tapering:

Weeks 1-8: Test Prop 75mg/day and Masteron 100mg/day
Weeks 1-12: HCG 500iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-12: Arimidex 1mg/day (I know 0.5mg/day could be sufficient but I’m paranoid…)

PCT
Week 9: 100mg Test Prop EOD
Week 10: 50mg Test Prop EOD
Week 11: 25mg Test Prop EOD
Week 12: 25mg Test Prop E3D
Week 13: Arimidex 1mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 14: Arimidex 0.5mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 15: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 16: Nolvadex 20mg/day


#6

quick question Brook, why don’t you recommend T prop EOD instead of ED? The half-life would seem to allow for this.

I’m personally right now at 100mg EOD. I`m wondering if I’m undercutting the benefits, but would hate to change the protocol mid-course.

Also, isn’t the PCT supposed ro be free of steroids? Wouldn`t it be considered tapering at this point?

my two cents would also go with OTS. lowering BF% goes a long, long way IMO. I was at 17%, but now am alway hovering just under 10%, and it’s a world of difference in my book.


#7

HCG should only be used during the cycle, not for PCT.


#8

[quote]OTS1 wrote:
HCG should only be used during the cycle, not for PCT.[/quote]

Okay…I’ll change the subtitles to avoid confusion but the principle is exactly the same:

MAIN CYCLE
Weeks 1-8: Test Prop 75mg/day and Masteron 100mg/day
Weeks 1-12: HCG 500iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-12: Arimidex 1mg/day (I know 0.5mg/day could be sufficient but I’m paranoid…)

TAPER
Week 9: 100mg Test Prop EOD
Week 10: 50mg Test Prop EOD
Week 11: 25mg Test Prop EOD
Week 12: 25mg Test Prop E3D

PCT
Week 13: Arimidex 1mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 14: Arimidex 0.5mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 15: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 16: Nolvadex 20mg/day


#9

Start PCT 3 days after last Test Prop inject, NOT two weeks after.

Don’t inject Test Prop E3D, even at the end. In my opinion, its ED, or you should use a different ester.

Use one dosage from beginning to end. Frontload at the beginning of the cycle.

You still need to do a lot of research, but we appreciate your clear, concise post, and proper typing skills.


#10

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
Start PCT 3 days after last Test Prop inject, NOT two weeks after.

Don’t inject Test Prop E3D, even at the end. In my opinion, its ED, or you should use a different ester.

Use one dosage from beginning to end. Frontload at the beginning of the cycle.

You still need to do a lot of research, but we appreciate your clear, concise post, and proper typing skills. [/quote]

I’m not trying to be argumentative or insist but just to be sure you understand…

I read that Test prop has an active life of 2-3 days so I don’t see a problem with injecting it E3D at the end of the cycle since the idea is to taper.

Your idea of using one dosage from beginning to end seems to contradict the concept of tapering.

Lastly, you mention that I’m starting PCT 2 weeks after my last Test prop injection - this is not true. My last injections are in week 12 and my PCT is starting in week 13. This could be 3 days after my last injection of 25mg.

Again, just to clarify - my objective is to combine tapering and PCT here.


#11

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
Start PCT 3 days after last Test Prop inject, NOT two weeks after.

Don’t inject Test Prop E3D, even at the end. In my opinion, its ED, or you should use a different ester.

Use one dosage from beginning to end. Frontload at the beginning of the cycle.

You still need to do a lot of research, but we appreciate your clear, concise post, and proper typing skills.

I’m not trying to be argumentative or insist but just to be sure you understand…

I read that Test prop has an active life of 2-3 days so I don’t see a problem with injecting it E3D at the end of the cycle since the idea is to taper.

Your idea of using one dosage from beginning to end seems to contradict the concept of tapering.

Lastly, you mention that I’m starting PCT 2 weeks after my last Test prop injection - this is not true. My last injections are in week 12 and my PCT is starting in week 13. This could be 3 days after my last injection of 25mg.

Again, just to clarify - my objective is to combine tapering and PCT here.

[/quote]

Test-e has a halflife of ~8 days… We still inject that E3D. Test Prop needs to be injected ED. You can use an insulin needle to measure small amounts.

Why are you tapering your dosage? I don’t think this is a very common practice nowadays. A stasis/taper is much different than just dropping your dosages towards the end. There is a sticky on it.


#12

Thanks for your replies DOH. I really appreciate the feedback. I would like as many opinions as possible.

Tapering may not be common anymore but it really seems logical to me that it would be easier for the system to adapt if you came off slowly.

I have read the taper sticky many times. It does not apply to my situation exactly because I’m not interested in taking enanthate - so I guessed that the waiting period should be shorter. Also it mentions to divide prop injections into 3 per week which is not ED as you said is a must.

Is anyone else here (not) a fan of tapering?

DOH - if you don’t like my “alternate” tapering protocol, what about the more “conventional” one?

Weeks 1-8: Test Prop 75mg/day and Masteron 100mg/day
Weeks 1-8: HCG 500iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-8: Arimidex 1mg/day (I know 0.5mg/day could be sufficient but I’m paranoid…)

PCT
Week 9: Arimidex 1mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 10: Arimidex 0.5mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 11: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 12: Nolvadex 20mg/day


#13

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
Tapering may not be common anymore but it really seems logical to me that it would be easier for the system to adapt if you came off slowly.

[/quote]

Nope. It is illogical, actually. You are going to be shut down pretty much until you come off entirely. Your HPTA doesn’t give a shit if you are running 2000mgs or 200mgs, it still isn’t going to start working the way it should until you cut out the exogenous AAS and stimulate it to start producing LH and FSH. So listen to what the good folks here are telling you. They happen to know what they are talking about.


#14

Thanks for the explanation Cortes.

So:

Weeks 1-8: Test Prop 75mg/day and Masteron 100mg/day
Weeks 1-8: HCG 500iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-8: Arimidex 1mg/day (I know 0.5mg/day could be sufficient but I’m paranoid…)

PCT
Week 9: Arimidex 1mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 10: Arimidex 0.5mg/day and Nolvadex 40mg/day
Week 11: Nolvadex 20mg/day
Week 12: Nolvadex 20mg/day

Are we all in agreement?


#15

This sounds like a much better cycle. Good for you for being open to the suggestions you received. Not that there would be any other reason to post a potential cycle up in the first place, but you’d never know that from many of the stubborn newbies who post here just looking for confirmation of their brilliance.

One thing, adex is something you’ll want to adjust throughout the cycle. You’ll know you’ve gone too high when your libido tanks, and trust me, you will not want to stay there.


#16

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This sounds like a much better cycle. Good for you for being open to the suggestions you received. Not that there would be any other reason to post a potential cycle up in the first place, but you’d never know that from many of the stubborn newbies who post here just looking for confirmation of their brilliance.

One thing, adex is something you’ll want to adjust throughout the cycle. You’ll know you’ve gone too high when your libido tanks, and trust me, you will not want to stay there. [/quote]

I know the feeling of having a tanked libido when I tried to treat my gyno with Letro. It was not a nice period of my life. In fact, I kind of gave up on that because it just wasn’t worth the misery. My plan is to continue cycling until I reach a size that I am happy with (and can maintain) and then if I can’t accept my existing gyno, I will pay for surgery to have the glands removed.

I just don’t want to have the surgery until I am finished playing with AAS.


#17

Looks MUCH better. I don’t know exactly why you’re running the Adex longer than the test, but overall this looks like a MUCH better cycle. I know that I would enjoy it greatly!


#18

36 years old
185 pounds
Not sure about bf% but I think it’s around 15%.
5’11"
34" waist
15" arms

History: I’ve been training off and on since I was a teenager - I’ve been training HARD for the past 3-5 years or so. Just to give you an idea of where I am (it’s not spectacular but I do everything with “perfect form” and slowly to prevent any injuries and I try to pull off at least 8 reps in any set), I leg press about 400-500 pounds, I curl 100 pounds standing curl bar, I can press 85-90 pound dumbells, head cave 80-90 pound curl bar.

Man, I am all for doing what it takes to reach the next level. It seems to me however you could seriously make dynamic changes in your appearance by diet and routine. I would thing “hard” training would lead to more size on the arms and smaller waist than what you have posted. Why not train seriously hard for 6-8 months and see where that leads you first.


#19

[quote]DieSucka wrote:
DOHCrazy wrote:
Start PCT 3 days after last Test Prop inject, NOT two weeks after.

Don’t inject Test Prop E3D, even at the end. In my opinion, its ED, or you should use a different ester.

Use one dosage from beginning to end. Frontload at the beginning of the cycle.

You still need to do a lot of research, but we appreciate your clear, concise post, and proper typing skills.

I’m not trying to be argumentative or insist but just to be sure you understand…

I read that Test prop has an active life of 2-3 days so I don’t see a problem with injecting it E3D at the end of the cycle since the idea is to taper.

Your idea of using one dosage from beginning to end seems to contradict the concept of tapering.

Lastly, you mention that I’m starting PCT 2 weeks after my last Test prop injection - this is not true. My last injections are in week 12 and my PCT is starting in week 13. This could be 3 days after my last injection of 25mg.

Again, just to clarify - my objective is to combine tapering and PCT here.

[/quote]

No its half life is 2 days (Active life is nearer 2 weeks IIRC - but that is not to say you have noticeably raised levels for that duration, as you most certainly will not).

So for the steadiest level, you would choose to inject BEFORE the levels have dropped by half - so that means daily.
EOD injections allow the level of the previous shot to half before you inject TWICE the daily amount on top again… this causes large (comparatively) peaks and troughs in the hormone levels ,increasing conversion to Oestrogen and DHT.

This is why injecting ANY ester most frequently (ie. daily if possible) is the BEST plan - whether it is logistical or absolutely necessary is another matter entirely.


#20

Thanks Brook.

Devil_Jacket - I’m not pretending to have the perfect diet or a perfect routine but I’m just getting stronger and stronger without the size to reflect it. I know some of the guys reading this will probably think “bah, what a pussy” but my 1RM for curling is at least 124 pounds (with my tiny 15" arms). And I’m wasting crap loads of money on supplements. I just don’t think my body is prone to add mass. Regarding my %bf, I’m just not sure what it is but I seem pretty lean. I really need to get it checked with calipers to be sure.