T Nation

Test for My First Time

Hi everyone… After researching, reading, thinking and planning for the last year or so i am ready to start my first cycle and wanted to run this past you for any last minute advice/critiques.
I am 35, have been working out for 10 years, but only seriously the last 4-5. I am 6ft,i 178, 32 w, 42.5 chest, 14.5 arms. could be better, but i have always been a hard gainer (i was 6ft 160 at 25). Right now i am in the middle of a 5x5 routine to gain strength and size. I am not looking to get huge, but want to grow and tone my arms/back the areas i am lacking.
anyways, here is what i plan. i dont want to take anything other than test my first time. i am especially concerned about pct. too much? too little? if i was to taper, what would that look like?

Wk 1-10 Test Enanthate 250mg E3D
wk 1-12 .25 mg a-dex

Nolvadex 20mg each day (if needed for symptoms)

PCT
wk 13-14 .25 mg a-dex EOD
wk 12-14 Human Chorionic Gonadotropin 5000iu E5D x2, then 2500iu E5D x2
wk 15 50 mg clomid 3x day
wk 16 50 mg clomid 2x day
wk 17 25 mg clomid 2x day

Thanks so much for any suggestions… I also have a diet plan that i can post as well

I’ll just bet that if you honestly post your current diet we will be able to help you better than offering you suggestions on your proposed cycle.

Raise the Test E to 500mg a week. 250 x 2 a week. Mon and Thurs

I don’t know if you are “ready” to start a cycle as proper nutrition could probably still bring you far prior to dabbling.

That said:

  1. I would do a shorter 8 week frontloaded test e cycle. This will give you more bang for your buck and allow you to recover quicker post cycle. Cycle progress often peters out after 8 weeks. Think about it - 8 weeks is long enough to be fully focused and full tilt. To fontload: initial injection should be around 700mg (that’s 2.8ml of test e @ 250mg/ml). You can split that in 2 shots of 1.4ml in different sites for comfort. This allows blood levels to be at the desired level almost immediately instead of waiting 3-5 weeks for the test e to kick in. It should allow for a much more productive cycle. Read The Frontload Chronicles" or the other frontload threads currently circulating in this forum. All subsequent shots would be your planned 250mg E3D.

  2. Adex 0.25mg ED may be too much. You can start at that amount and if you start to feel achy joints and low libido, lower it to 0.25 EOD.

  3. Mega dosing hCH post cycle is not recommended as it impairs your body’s ability to get its own production back online. Low dose hCG can be of use during cycle (read 250iu EOD), but would not be a necessity for an 8 week cycle.

4)Standard Nolva 40/40/20/20 PCT seems to be the preference of those in the know and easier on the system than Clomid.

Skip the HCG and make it 8 weeks instead of 10. You’ll feel and benefit for 10 weeks anyways. This is individual but after the 9 week mark I usually see diminishing returns.

funmetal

How much do you eat per day? 6ft tall 178 pounds and 14.5" arms is a pretty shitty starting point. There is a ton of room for natural improvement.

thanks for the suggestions… So, common theme is i should skip the HCG and make it 8 weeks instead of 10 and frontload.

Dynamo - The reason i went with A-dex ED was to try to combat water retention. How big a difference would that make ED vs. EOD?

My diet could be better, i know, but i have high metabolism and always have. In the last 5 years i have gained 15 - 20 pounds naturally. I was up to 190 last year, but dropped down to 175 after doing the V-Diet in April. More recent pic in my profile. Currently im close to 180.

My diet could be better and I probably do not eat enough. My proposed diet which i will do on cycle looks like this -

7:00 am - Protein scoop w/ instant breakfast and 8 oz of milk
292cal, 27carb, 32p

8:00 am - 3 whole hard boiled eggs, 8 oz glass of OJ
346 cal,28c, 21 p

10:00 - 1 chicken breast, 1 cup mixed veg
258cal, 18c, 38p

12:00 - 1 chicken breast, 1 cup whole grain rice
468cal, 65c, 40p

2:00 - 2 tbs peanut butter 1 tsp jelly whole wheat bread sandwhich
288cal, 39c, 23p

4:00 - protien shake
100cal, 4 carb, 20p

6:00 - 8slices, 6 oz turkey w 1/2 cup barley
501cal, 75c, 40p

workout / protien bar
240cal, 26carb, 20p

8:00 - 7oz lean steak w med sweet potato, 4 oz mixed fruit, 1 cup mix veg
760cal, 57c, 88p

10:00 - protien shake
100cal, 4 carb, 20 p

calories - 3353
carbs - 346
protien - 342

You need to eat more. Get this ‘hardgainer’ crap out of your head.

Im eating about that much, and I was a chubby kid growing up.

Also, you’re eating like you’re scared to grow. Eat some more eggs, drink some whole milk, use some olive oil.

You are no where near ready. Put on another 20-30 lbs and the possibly consider it.

Your not eating near enough judging by your photos. AAS is not going to mysteriously put size on you if you are unable to do it naturally to begin with.

I know Im probably not ideal starting position, but I venture to bet that most people are not the first time. The only way to find out is going to be to try.

I just want to be sure I am doing it right, eating enough etc as not to waste any potential while on cycle. Hopefully the lessons learned will carry over to after cycle as well. Its just a boost i want right now. Hopefully not a long term solution.

No offense, but by the looks of your pictures, it doesn’t really look like you workout at all. Maybe some pushups but for 10 years of lifting you have little to show for it. Steroids are absolutely not what you need right now.

You need to seriously reevaluate your training and start working your up to eating double the amount you are now if you ever want to get big.

No offense taken. have only been working out hard over the past 3 years. If you saw what a skinny rail i was 10 years ago you would see a huge difference.

Regardless, i appreciate the critism. I think if I knew 15 years ago what i know now, i would look amazing at this point. I am 35 now, so its harder on me.

Anyways - as scared as i am of putting on fat, sounds like upping my calories to at least 4000 a day would be better. i couldnt imagine going 5000 or more.

I can’t see you eating nearly enough to make any real gains on or off cycle. What was your reasoning in doing the V-diet? To lose body fat? Really??? You don’t even list any information for how much fat you are taking in, which leads me to believe that you don’t think that they are necessary or try to avoid them for body composition purposes.

I would suggest trying to drastically raise you calories to see how your body responds. If you have been lifting for 10 years and have very little to show for it, your body is probably starving. Feed your muscles and they will grow.

It can be a little shitty psychologically seeing your waistline increasing on a bulk, but it will be worth it in the end.

[quote]ajh7471 wrote:

Anyways - as scared as i am of putting on fat, sounds like upping my calories to at least 4000 a day would be better. i couldnt imagine going 5000 or more.

[/quote]

It’s nice that you are open to suggestions and are willing to eat more.

But if you can’t imagine continuing to increase your calories as you grow then don’t imagine that you will ever continue to make progress past a certain point.

If you say you are a “hardgainer” (code for “I don’t know how to eat”) than you should not be worried about fat gain. Make a choice. Get bigger and look better by eating more or do what you are doing now deal with the fact that the results you desire will never come.

[quote]ajh7471 wrote:
thanks for the suggestions… So, common theme is i should skip the HCG and make it 8 weeks instead of 10 and frontload.

Dynamo - The reason i went with A-dex ED was to try to combat water retention. How big a difference would that make ED vs. EOD?
[/quote]

The half life of Adex is such that EOD is sufficiently frequent to keep estrogen under wraps. More frequent never hurts however, just cut the dose if necessary. If you find yourself getting achy joints and low libido, cut down from .25mg ED to .125mg ED.

If .125mg is too difficult to measure (you may want an oral syringe for that small a dose); then do 0.25 EOD.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
No offense, but by the looks of your pictures, it doesn’t really look like you workout at all. Maybe some pushups but for 10 years of lifting you have little to show for it. Steroids are absolutely not what you need right now.

You need to seriously reevaluate your training and start working your up to eating double the amount you are now if you ever want to get big. [/quote]

Shows how fun and enjoyable natty training is when one doesnt have the genes for the sport doesn’t it… :wink:

Diet aside for now (I will revise and up my planned intake), this is what my revised cycle and PCT looks like.

Frontload - 700mg
Wk 1-8 Test Enanthate 250mg E3D
wk 1-10 .25 mg a-dex EOD

Nolvadex 20mg each day (if needed for symptoms)

PCT
wk 11-12 .0125 mg a-dex everyotherday
wk 13 40 mg nolvadex ED
wk 14 40 mg nolvadex ED
wk 15 20 mg nolvadex ED
wk 16 20 mg nolvadex ED

[quote]LillGuy001 wrote:
You are no where near ready. Put on another 20-30 lbs and the possibly consider it.

Your not eating near enough judging by your photos. AAS is not going to mysteriously put size on you if you are unable to do it naturally to begin with.[/quote]

At first I didn’t want to agree on this one but after some thought I have to agree with ya lilguy. If your trying your earnest to grow and everything is spot on and you aren’t growing, AAS will not probably not benefit you. Blame your gene pool at that point.

If it wasn’t there naturally it probably wont happen. As for the hardgainer aspect, bullshit. You have to eat more. Plain and simple. OP, have you done a dietary bulking phase? With that even after I leaned it out I still managed to get at least 2-4 lean pounds out of it naturally.

I am taking the use of AAS seriously, so I appreciate all the advice. I dont want the easy ride to a rockin body and have resisted trying this for a long while. If I weighed 20-30 lbs more i wouldnt even consider AAS because I’d already be bigger than I personally want to be.

I admit that I have only been working out consitantly and hard for the last three years. And noone knows better than myself that my diet could be better. Obviously I need to eat more and cleaner, that is part of the plan.

I work out 3-4 times a week, do cardio at least twice a week. I have gained 20 lbs or so of good mass over the past 5 years. I will continue to work hard to reach my goals whether i decide to do AAS right now or not.

It would take me at least another 2-3 years of work to get to the point where I would be ‘ready’ on paper and probably never by the picture standard. I admire your physiques and respect the work you must put it into it, but I face the facts that my genetics will never allow me to look like that naturally.

If i have the oppurtunity to try a moderate dosage of test and gain another 10 - 15 lbs of lean muscle that if i do it right would not be lost, why should I not? Should I really wait that long and reconsider at 40?

I am doctor supervised so I feel better about doing this right now and being able to be monitired and not screwing up my body, but still trying to get all the real world opinion I can.