T Nation

Test E/ Deca Cycle (+ PCT?)

HI.
Just before I begin I just want to give you a little info on my background / experience.

Im 28 from Manchester in the UK, am a personal trainer and have been training on and off for ten years. I have U.S qualifications and years of hands on training and you might say ‘muscle memory’ (I can get back up to size after a decent break in no time after a decent break ,steroid free I hasten to add, wait Im straying off the subject …)

Nevertheless I am taking my training to the next level as I have reached a plateau as such, hence starting on a 8 WEEK AAS I want to understand how to implicate proper pct and in what order to use them. I want you to understand that I have noticed people who ‘overkill’ or take far too much HCG/nolva/clomid, (the ancillarys I will be using) than I would reccomend or want to use myself, however I would like to hear your advice. Also the use of Vitamins and any other supplement you recomend in crafting Killer PCT.

I messed around with courses some years ago but in no educated way and have decided to prepare for a more educated cycle, this being my FIRST one. I ve read up for years on other web-sites on different methods, techniques, doses etc. Also all the stickies but to be honest I’m a bit unsure on details of PCT.

The compounds I will be starting off with are as follows:

Anabol / D-bol : 126 x 5mg tabs (6 tabs per day for first 3 weeks)

Deca Durabolin : 8 x 100mg vials (100mg every monday shot with test-e)

Test Enanthate : 8 x 250mg amps (250mg every monday shot with deca)

HCG : 1 x 5000iu amp (I can only get the 5000 iu’s)not sure when to use

Clomid : 28 x 50 mg tabs ( 100/50/50 ) 2 or 3 weeks after last shot?

Nolva : I have 30 x 20mg tabs (not sure when to use)

So thats my script, I’ts not over the top as its my first cycle but enough so I should see some sizable gains, that will LAST after I come off cycle.

Now heres the thing, I hear that I should stop the deca a week before I stop the Test as the test takes 2weeks to taper off and the deca takes 3 weeks before starting pct but how can I do this if I am taking them both at once on monday??

So to confirm…

When do I shoot the HCG?

Do I start the clomid 2 or 3 weeks after my last shot??

When do I use Nolvadex??

I really appreciate your help on this one. I will post my progress here also to let you know how its going.

Peace out.

Flecks

It is a classicly designed cycle by every Brit i have met. For some reason the British are very poorly advised on AAS use - bar a few of course.

All the lads i used to know who used used to use 200mg Deca and 250mg Sust a week… even now when people ask me about what drugs i may or may not use… the comment:

“Do you use the strong stuff like Sust” Every time.

As a trainer for those type of individuals it is a fucking challenge i must say - it is significantly easier online.

Anyway…

100mg of Nandrolone will suppress you FULLY yet provide little to no noticeable results. It is a waste of time, money and potential.

I wonder if you are using it for specific reasons or because it is just one that you have heard is good to use?

Either way the dose should be at least 200% of that… and i would advise most casual users to use 200mg of that drug at the most too.

Testosterone (whether Sust, Enanth, Cyp or whatever) at 250mg is ok for muscle but is not a dose that will be ‘packing on the size’.

To compare it - many guys on TRT use around 200mg/wk… as do i.

You cycle is using drugs primarily associated with size… so i assume that is the goal - if so why limit the dose of one of the most effective mass builders you have?

Go with at least 400mg-500mg mate.

Dianabol is a fine drug… but using it for the kick start is a little dated already… and i found that those who use it like this end up with mid cycle losses and find it hard to phychologically recover (thinking they have a bad cycle as the precedence set by this powerful drug is not met again) - I would run it for the full 6-8 weeks personally… 30mg is a great dose.

HCG signals the testes to secrete T, and is effective at a dose of 100iu even.
So for this reason the amount of T secreted with 5000iu is massive - this increases inhibition, increases estrogen and also apparently desensitises the testes to the signal that the body will give post cycle to begin producing T again.

All bad.

For a casual steroid user 250iu 3x/wk ran during the cycle works to prevent the testes from atrophying due to inactivity - while not increasing estrogen or inhibiting after the cycle (as high doses post cycle will) and not desensitising the testes to the signals they receive in order to begin secreting T again.

You need an Aromatase Inhibitor during the cycle to prevent Estrogen rising too high, and you need to run your SERM post cycle to assist recovery of your HPTA.

As for vitamins… well, first things first huh?

My advice? you need to read a HELL of a lot more than you have as your information is severely lacking.

Also to run JUST Test - maybe another AAS too for the first run. 3 drugs is JUST.NOT.NECESSARY.

Best.

1 Like

[quote]J-J wrote:
100mg of Nandrolone will suppress you FULLY yet provide little to no noticeable results. It is a waste of time, money and potential.

I wonder if you are using it for specific reasons or because it is just one that you have heard is good to use?[/quote]

I was wondering the same thing. Is there a specific reason you want to include Deca in the cycle?

As far as hCG use, try googling “swale hcg protocol”. It worked for me in that my retained retained their size the entire cycle 10-week cycle (was my first as well).

Wow great response J-J alot to take on board. I have to say what you say is mostly something that I agree with but others not. Firstly,
The amount of Deca you say needs to be doubled to 200mg I agree however it is the breakdown of WHEN I need to take these so I will go with

week 1-4 30mg D-bol ed.

week 1-10 monday 100mg-deca, then thursday 250mg Test e + 100mg-deca. ( 200mg deca and 250mg test e per week)

I disagree with taking HCG throughout the cycle and I know theres much debate about that but the last thing I want to do is desensitize the leydig cells. SO heres what Im gonna suggest and see what you think…5 days after my last shot I will use 750iu then another 750iu 5days after that.On that tenth day Post cycle I will commence clomid at what I described above 100/50/50 (3 weeks).NOW is there a need to use nolvadex along with the clomid?I think clomid will be a sufficient SERM for me.

For best results, NOlVADEX is best stacked with HCG, which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two

This I feel is the safest and more side effect free method of PCT.

I stole this off of another site. Thought it was good reading and information

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody’s best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That’s basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I’d have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn’t enough) is because it’s a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn’t have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that’s mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It’s a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That’s life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

Oh I found IT MYSelf…!
This is most of what I was looking for…
PEACE

1 Like

[quote]flecks wrote:
This I feel is the safest and more side effect free method of PCT.[/quote]

Which is why YOU came onto this board for help.

You also neglected J-J’s (who is one of the best on this board for advice) advice and still backed up your own opinions on AAS.

I sure as shit can’t offer any better advice than what has already been offered, but you should probably pull your head out of your ass.

It sounds like you already “know” everything you need to know, so why are you here?

Even a n00b like myself can find this thread funny (in an unfortunate way), I can only imagine what the board vets are thinking. At least nobody can say that you don’t know how to operate copy/paste…

already , now yes

How arrogant can you be to come to THIS site and cut and paste information from ANOTHER site to refute advice given to you by one of the better members here?

If you have reason to disagree with advice given, that is fine, we (the group her in the steroids forum and the rest of the forums as well) are very open minded to new ideas.

But don’t come here and cut and paste information that every single one of us has read before. If you had some NEW information that had merit (theoretically and anecdotally) you would not be receiving the reaction that you are getting.

Good luck with your cycle

Edit - i gave a umber of rant to this idiot, yet to show… :wink:

Listen up Cheeseball.
You cant give me ONE reason why any other normal person who comes onto this site,(like me) who is looking for information WILL NOT want to read this. WTF has cutting and pasting got anything to do with the matter in hand, which was, if you had bothered to read from the top of the page to do with a Test e/deca cycle and various questions about PCT ???

WHo really are you to deny someone else knowledge to better protect themselves when deciding on weather to use clomid or nolva? cmon now. I had already acknowledged that I had stole it from another site, you should just make a decision for yourself and stop critisizing others for posting RELEVANT info for a RELEVANT questions.
I am open minded also but not to critisizm.
PEACE

[quote]flecks wrote:
I stole this off of another site. Thought it was good reading and information

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody’s best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That’s basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I’d have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn’t enough) is because it’s a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn’t have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that’s mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It’s a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That’s life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.

Oh I found IT MYSelf…!
This is most of what I was looking for…
PEACE
[/quote]

Do you really believe that every piece of information on-line is current and up to date?

Also i strongly suspect that what you have copied was not from an endocrinology journal, but from another forum…

What’s more - i put it to you, sir - that due to a number of factors (that would only be seen as arrogant to list), a few searches on-line are NEVER going to be equivalent to what some members of this board can (did, and would have continued to,) offer.

Shame.

As a note to the regular T-Nationites… isn’t it funny when people wander into this very intellectual steroid forum (in my experience it is one of, if not the, best) asking for answers and when they get exactly whatthey ask for, they refute it and claim that the wrong information they had started out with was correct.

All the Pharmacology, Medicinal Chemistry and Molecular Physiology quals/students in the world are no match for the arrogant ignoramus’.

Never mind.

[quote]flecks wrote:
Listen up Cheeseball.
You cant give me ONE reason why any other normal person who comes onto this site,(like me) who is looking for information WILL NOT want to read this. WTF has cutting and pasting got anything to do with the matter in hand, which was, if you had bothered to read from the top of the page to do with a Test e/deca cycle and various questions about PCT ???
WHo really are you to deny someone else knowledge to better protect themselves when deciding on weather to use clomid or nolva? cmon now. I had already acknowledged that I had stole it from another site, you should just make a decision for yourself and stop critisizing others for posting RELEVANT info for a RELEVANT questions.
I am open minded also but not to critisizm.
PEACE
[/quote]

You fucking arsehole.

THE INFORMATION YOU PASTED IS NOT UP TO DATE - NOR IT IS OPTIMAL (as it relates to HCG at least).

Using high dose HCG post cycle increases inhibition in most cases. It is just your lack of understanding of male endocrine physiology that means you cannot see this - but unlike you, most here have a basic understanding of the area in question…

So if you want to be naive and ignorant - fine. that is your right, and i honestly couldn’t give two flying fucks.
However to verbally assault regular posters in trying to support your MIS-INFORMATION is bang out of order.

You say you are trying to better the site/page with information on how to protect yourself - BUT you are doing the opposite, but posting dated and below optimal information you are actually taking away from the forum and it’s relatively high standard of knowledge and learning.

The information isn’t incorrect so much as simply not the best way to do things - not ‘optimal’ - however any fuck can use steroids and gain weight, but it takes a certain intelligence (that you DO NOT possess) to do so in the safest, most productive and optimum manner possible.

Brook

[quote]flecks wrote:
week 1-10 monday 100mg-deca, then thursday 250mg Test e + 100mg-deca. ( 200mg deca and 250mg test e per week)[/quote]

Well you will experience a higher incidence of side effects doing it in this manner - but YOU clearly know best. Maybe my studies are not as useful as i believed…[quote]

I disagree with taking HCG throughout the cycle and I know theres much debate about that but the last thing I want to do is desensitize the leydig cells.[/quote]

Actually there is no debate about it - there are two ways essentially, the old way and the new way - based on a number of recent studies. Still…[quote]

SO heres what Im gonna suggest and see what you think…5 days after my last shot I will use 750iu then another 750iu 5days after that.On that tenth day Post cycle I will commence clomid at what I described above 100/50/50 (3 weeks).NOW is there a need to use nolvadex along with the clomid?I think clomid will be a sufficient SERM for me.[/quote]

750iu of HCG will increase natural T to supraphysiological levels. This will not only impact the HPTA in and of itself, but will of course aromatise increasing E2 significantly… further inhibiting you.

Then of course you have the issue of the low androgen level post cycle coupled with an out of control E2 level… the addition of a Progestin and you are more likely to have libido and gyno issues than someone who followed my advice.

But i am sure you have taken that into account, and the ‘Nolva’ will sufficiently ‘control’ your Estrogen, Progesterone and Prolactin activity…

[quote]flecks wrote:
For best results, NOlVADEX is best stacked with HCG, which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid.[/quote]

Again - this is OLD methodolgy for recovering the HPTA. his is NOT the best way to do it - and is clear this is also copied and pasted.[quote]

The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function.[/quote]

So this person who wrote this - clearly not yourself believes that HCG is suppressive in and of itself, which is correct. However they seem to believe that concurrent use of 2 SERMS will solve this.

If this were the case, then surely SERMS would be used throughout the whole cycle to keep endocrine function up? But no. They are useless when there are suppressive levels of androgen present - as those doses of HCG will cause.

Regardless - recovery will still occur, just not as speedily as it would using the protocols that are now considered the best.[quote]

But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two

This I feel is the safest and more side effect free method of PCT.[/quote]

It is really embarassing that you copy and paste a whole post and pretend it is your words. REALLY embarassing!

LMFAO.

For a laugh - lets examine this text to see what’s what here…

[quote]flecks wrote:
I stole this off of another site. Thought it was good reading and information

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar.[/quote]

Few people consider the two SERMS Clomiphene and Tamoxifen similar…? I must be in that minority.[quote]

Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.[/quote]

‘From day one’ - this seems to suggest that the earlier a drug has been used in a certain manner, the more likely it is to be correct? In the field of pharmacology this is almost the opposite of the truth, as medical knowledge advances and evolves, so does the dosing of drugs.

Plus the medical uses of the two drugs is based on myth… This is such a common occurance in the medical world doncha find?[quote]

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids.

After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up.[/quote]

So when there are very low androgen levels - the male body compensates by raising Estrogen?

NOT that the estrogen and Androgen levels are very high on cycle, and as the Androgen levels decline post cycle the user is left with a dominant estrogen hormone? Not that.

Ah… we find the quote you used didn’t we? Fucking fake.

Ifv you think any of the above qualifies as good information - either now, 5, 10 or 20 years ago - you are sorely mistaken.

that was one of the single worst pieces of steroid writing i have ever been unfortunate to witness.

It is fucking awful - the writer has no knoledge in the area.

YOU sir, are a fucking tool.

The end.

It’s not that nobody wants to give you advice, it’s that you are obviously a n00b yet you’re acting as if you know everything already instead of at least taking into consideration advice given by a knowledgeable board member like J-J. Did you use facts and logic to debate points that he made? No, you just said “I disagree” and then pasted something you probably pulled off some random website (you know that over 90% of steroids related information on the internet is complete BS, right?). Now that everyone has seen that, I doubt any of the other board vets will be too excited about helping you out either. Just how I’ve interpreted the situation so far, that’s all…

I have to admitt to all the people who added like JJ to this thread that it wasnt really my intention to throw a spanner in the works os so to speak. The more that people try to explain things the less unclear instructions seem! I believe Apples and oranges is the term I would use. From my point of view you upping deca to 400-500mg a week is too high for my 1st cycle along with 500g of test and 4 weeks of d-bol tabs I think its a little too much personally.
So far thers been no week by week breakdown of PCT protocol which was what I wanted.
OOPS
Anyway thanks guys for your help although heated, I learnt something…

JJ- I have to apologise for posting the article as I can now see most of the info was not accurate. I have been looking for PCT protocols and found this one. It seem to agree with what you told me about HCG usage throught the cycle.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

post cycle therapy part 1


found this on another site well worth a read
Everything Thatâ??s Wrong With Your PCT by Eric M. Potratz

In the world of steroid users, it has become mandatory to follow post cycle therapy (PCT) upon cessation of steroid use. Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had great success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the major problems with popular PCT protocols and clarify exactly how we should use the items at our disposal for optimum recovery from AAS. Three main topics will be covered in this article â??

HCG on cycle – I will show you the best way to use HCG, which will protect your “testicular real-estate”, and prime your HPTA for the fastest and most complete recovery possible.

SERMs. – Drugs such as Clomid and Nolvadex are some of the most toxic drugs in a steroid-users cabinet. I will present the evidence of this toxicity and provide alternatives.

Peptides for PCT – Peptides such as Growth Hormone and IGF-1 have much more of a role in PCT than most people realize. Besides preserving muscle gains, these hormones can actually help restore testicular function after a cycle.

HCG unraveled

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads.1 LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) â?? All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu.2,11 (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function â?? but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you wonâ??t regain full testicular function.

To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-AAS cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size.7 Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.6

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldnâ??t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.

Recap â?? For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

As an alternative to the on cycle hCG protocol, you could follow a plan based on modulation of the gonadotropin pulse generator. (seen here)

Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle.

This was so much help, I am going with a weeky shot of 500iu’s throughout, AND DROPPING THE HCG A WEEK BEFORE THE AAS CLEAR THE SYSTEM. In my case with deca and test e, two weeks after my last deca shot as deca takes 3 weeks to clear.At that point I would start commence Nolvadex for 4 weeks @ 40mg/40mg/20mg/20mg every day.

I hope this comes in usefull for anyone with similar cycles.

jj- Thanks for showing me the way to go with propo HCG usage, Sure will be sticking around to read up more.

Will post progress as and when I decide to go ahead with my cycle.

Great Work to you all.

Flecks