Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost.[/quote]
Great. Simple. To the point. And painfully generalised.[quote]
So its in everybody’s best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen,[/quote]
Now the SERM’s have an ability to lower Estrogen levels themselves…?[quote]
so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That’s basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less. [/quote]
Nothing more nothing less… there is nothing else you should be aware of it seems…
of course if this were the case, then surely managing estrogen on cycle so that as soon as the cycle is over the estrogen and androgen levels are both low, the ‘hypothalamus would again begin regenerating testosterone’.
(My god, i have never read such a bold attempt at being educated in a subject when there is such a distinct lack of knowledge!)[quote]
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day.[/quote]
That or more potent - but that’s probably the same anyway…
If there ever was a drug you SHOULD take for DECREASING OVERALL ESTROGEN - it is ‘Nolvadex’. (sob)[quote]
A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it.
As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to. [/quote]
Ahhh… we actually manage to get something right! I think he actually did some research as he was typing and realising he knew sweet fuck all on the matter!
Simply put, SERMS are estrogen agonists at some sites and antagonists at others. That is what he meant from the beginning i think… but as long as the general message is correct, eh? Uh…[quote]
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex.[/quote]
Aromatase blocker. Yes. Proviron and Arimidex… same breath, same shit. Just as similar as ‘Clomid’ and ‘Nolva’ i expect.[quote]
Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound. [/quote]
At least this part is generally right… in that anecdotally this seems to work. Physiologically speaking it is flawed as all eternal hell though.
But hey, who said a steroid guru needed to know the first thing about the action/reaction factors of hormones in the body…? Uh… [quote]
So which one should you use? Well personally, I’d have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective.[/quote]
But even though we assered the actual activity of Tamoxifen as an estorgen agonist and antagonist in differing tissues only, we are now back to it somehow ‘deactivating rebound estrogen’.[quote]
But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1. [/quote]
Oh i see… well i did think that there was ‘no more, no less’ to the role of SERMs on the recovery of the HPTA?[quote]
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver.
This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree. [/quote]
Of course, the existing estrogen from aromatising steroids, the high post cycle estrogen you have running one of your cycles, and the use of proviron as your ‘aromatase blocker’ will mean that you NEED the estrogenic effects of tamoxifen in the liver…[quote]
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn’t enough) is because it’s a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn’t have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that’s mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Tamoxifen is an all round ‘good egg’ it seems… positive no matter HOW you look at it.
I think i will begin to run it throughout the year… [quote]
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger.[/quote]
Please stop. Please…?[quote]
Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made.[/quote]
Oh - so Tamoxifen DOES reduce estrogen after all? Confusing.[quote]
For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex.[/quote]
So the ‘weaker’, ‘weak estrogen’ is better on cycle now? Uh… but… wait, what?[quote]
Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It’s a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That’s life, nothing is free. [/quote]
That’s life alright, you cannot run a steroid cycle expecting great gains without enduring the worst of the side effects… (or can you?! Bwahahahaharrhaaahaarha)[quote]
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains.[/quote]
It is advisable to have an estrogen level significantly higher than normal as this will increase your gains in the weight of the prostate, adipose and water significantly.
Having a normal range of estrogen during a Test’rone cycle will reduce the gains to that comparable to a cycle of Primobolan or other mild androgen clearly.
And for those who require their estrogen to be within the normal endogenous ranges for their libido to be maintained… ‘nothing is free, that’s life’ apparently. [quote]
Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks.
The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued. [/quote]
The length of the drugs activity determines the length of time needed for recovery - NOT as many believe the length of time the body is inhibited - apparently.[quote]
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
Oh I found IT MYSelf…!
This is most of what I was looking for…