T Nation

Test Dosages & PCT

In another forum I was skimming I came across a quote from one of the mods that I liked. The mod was responding to a question about doing PCT. Basically he said “Don’t do cycles that require PCT.”

In today’s world of overdoing basically everything I found this to be a refreshing viewpoint.

Anyway, my question to you all is what kind of dosages (of any drug you have an opinion on) do you think would not require PCT and anti-e’s etc, yet still be effective?

For my part I find that 125mgs test-e e3d is effective yet doesn’t seem to require PCT etc…

What do yall think?

You have fully recovered from that dosing or you are hoping that it does not require PCT?

Many novices have been injured by wishful thinking or ignorance. Everyone responds differently and you cannot have any idea how you will fare until you have been through it, for good or bad. Many will not take the chance that they will be ok without PCT and [wisely] never have to find out.

Advocating this for others is irresponsible.

[quote]KSman wrote:
You have fully recovered from that dosing or you are hoping that it does not require PCT?

Many novices have been injured by wishful thinking or ignorance. Everyone responds differently and you cannot have any idea how you will fare until you have been through it, for good or bad. Many will not take the chance that they will be ok without PCT and [wisely] never have to find out.

Advocating this for others is irresponsible.[/quote]

Why would you NOT want to avoid taking another drug with all of its potential side effects (i.e. clomid & blindness) if possible?

I can see you are very cautious and that is understandable but I am trying to be even more cautious! :slight_smile:

In my opinion it all depends on the person. One of the guys I used to lift with could take anything and has never used any form of PCT in his life. He would stack 750mg of test with dbol and tren for a powerlifting competition and then take 6-8 weeks off with little to no strength loss and absolutely no gyno. He did lose some mass but still it wasn’t that much. Where as me, if I so much as smell gear i need PCT! So i guess some people are just lucky Mother-fer’s!

[quote]Diana Bolann wrote:
KSman wrote:
You have fully recovered from that dosing or you are hoping that it does not require PCT?

Many novices have been injured by wishful thinking or ignorance. Everyone responds differently and you cannot have any idea how you will fare until you have been through it, for good or bad. Many will not take the chance that they will be ok without PCT and [wisely] never have to find out.

Advocating this for others is irresponsible.

Why would you NOT want to avoid taking another drug with all of its potential side effects (i.e. clomid & blindness) if possible?

I can see you are very cautious and that is understandable but I am trying to be even more cautious! :slight_smile:

[/quote]

Clomid is not the only SERM that you can obtain. Are you looking for excuses to not understand the bigger picture?

Blindness has occurred with some babies born to women who have taken clomid to get pregnant or during pregnancy when they did not realize that they had become pregnant. If you are not at risk of getting pregnant… what is your concern?

Blindness was one of many birth defects that have been reported in association with Clomid. But note that these same birth defects also occur in women not taking any drugs.

The birth defects are rare and the sample size does not create a very good statistical case. But there are lawyers who make a big deal of this and a big deal of money as well.

Note that there are a lot of older women seeking to get pregnant who are trying various interventions. As a group, compared to young healthy women, older women who get pregnant naturally or easily do as a group have a definite higher risk of having a babies with birth defects or a pregnancy that will not carry to term. You need to read between the lines.

Ksman,

There is no need to be pompous.
You are not a doctor yet in multiple threads I have read you prescribing Nolvadex, HCG etc… to people including TRT patients whose doctors have already not reccomended it. Talk about irresopnsible!

If you don’t have any interest in discussing the topic as peers then don’t respond. It’s not as if it isn’t obvious that you are parroting what you have read online. Unless you drop your tone you will be ignored.

At this point I’m already not inclined to address any of the points you made about Clomid.

[quote]Diana Bolann wrote:

At this point I’m already not inclined to address any of the points you made about Clomid.[/quote]

Ignorance is bliss. What is selected ignorance?

[quote]KSman wrote:
Diana Bolann wrote:

At this point I’m already not inclined to address any of the points you made about Clomid.

Ignorance is bliss. What is selected ignorance? [/quote]

Considering that the claim of ignorance is coming from you, a nobody, the statement doesn’t carry much weight.

Fill your body up with multiple drugs for all I care, at least let this thread turn into a conversation rather than hijacking it with your nonsense.

[quote]Diana Bolann wrote:
KSman wrote:
Diana Bolann wrote:

At this point I’m already not inclined to address any of the points you made about Clomid.

Ignorance is bliss. What is selected ignorance?

Considering that the claim of ignorance is coming from you, a nobody, the statement doesn’t carry much weight.

Fill your body up with multiple drugs for all I care, at least let this thread turn into a conversation rather than hijacking it with your nonsense.[/quote]

I help folks who want to know how and why these things are used. Learning is a on going process and many like to help others. Many docs do not know how to manage TRT properly. So in your mind we should not discuss that. Empowered by knowledge, guys can discuss these options with their physicians, and for those on gear, make better choices.

I don’t see how you are helping anyone or why you took offence to the original information that I provided, that you refuse to discuss.

I did not hijack this thread, but it now seems to be centered around your offence.

So lets start over from the beginning. Why are you wanting people to agree that PCT is not needed?

[quote]Diana Bolann wrote:
In another forum I was skimming I came across a quote from one of the mods that I liked. The mod was responding to a question about doing PCT. Basically he said “Don’t do cycles that require PCT.”

Anyway, my question to you all is what kind of dosages (of any drug you have an opinion on) do you think would not require PCT and anti-e’s etc, yet still be effective? [/quote]

I’ll try and bring this back on-topic.

From my understanding, the only compounds that meet this criterion are test and masteron (or proviron). And prob anavar.

I am with KSman on this one ! his posts is quite logical and i dont know why Diana is getting offended by this.

having said that, i dont understand why diana is highly advocating not using PCT !!! it is not worth the risk of Gyno, plus even if your cycle didnt require the use of PCT, it wont hurt it… there are no blindness crap associated so pls dont mislead ppl

Check out P22’s test taper thread.

[quote]maqusa wrote:
I am with KSman on this one ! his posts is quite logical and i dont know why Diana is getting offended by this.

having said that, i dont understand why diana is highly advocating not using PCT !!! it is not worth the risk of Gyno, plus even if your cycle didnt require the use of PCT, it wont hurt it… there are no blindness crap associated so pls dont mislead ppl[/quote]

Gyno is one thing, and PCT another, right? Or does gyno usually start post-cycle? The fact that Nolva and Clo can help gyno is pretty well documented I think, but helping to restart your nuts I haven’t seen anything on. As for HCG, Cy blasts the stuff in this article…

http://www.T-Nation.com/findArticle.do?article=226cy2

Every list of side effects I have found for Clomid reports possible ‘changes in vision.’ Maybe you are right about blindness. But my whole point in starting the conversation is to get to the bottom of PCT and to get others opinions on the necessity of it.

Regarding my “taking offense” I’m not interested in being preached to or being spoken to like a child. I will tell anyone who insists on this to “go to hell.” I didn’t jump down anyone’s throat without provocation.

Thanks for your opinion and the straight forward response.

[quote]laconic wrote:
Check out P22’s test taper thread.[/quote]

Thanks.

[quote]KSman wrote:
So lets start over from the beginning. Why are you wanting people to agree that PCT is not needed? [/quote]

OK thanks. I still love you too.

I’m definitely not trying to get people to agree with me, I am interested in exploring the notion of “Not doing cycles that require PCT.” I’m not interested in exploring the notion of “Always doing PCT no matter what,” I’ve heard that a lot lately.

I am interested in this because I would like to take as few drugs as possible. I don’t see how wanting to avoid taking these drugs that have potential risks associated with them is so controversial.

If you strongly disagree that’s fine, but please don’t take it the wrong way if I initially dismiss your opinion before I have heard from others. No disrespect intended.

In Zone,

I wasn’t asking anyone for help. I wanted to have a conversation with the posters here. Showing up on a thread that isn’t asking about whether or not to use PCT and making statements like “Are you making excuses to not get the picture?” IS strongly disagreeing (with the entire intent of the thread) and it’s pompous.

I don’t give a shit if he disagrees, I give a shit if he tries to act like a smart-ass and take the thread off topic.

Go back to not posting.

Some people say oral turinabol actually causes a slight rebound effect after discontinuing it causing t-levels to rise above pre cycle levels for a short period.

I believe the World Anabolic Review mentions this phenomena.
I’m not sure if I believe it is true, but a few testosterone saliva tests would be an easy way to test it.

To me its not a matter of does the cycle require PCT, its more a matter of I want my libido, nipples, lower function if you catch my drift, and mood to be right. I would not try anything without setting up a proper PCT.

Until you know exactly how your body reacts to different drugs and dosages, you really have no idea how you will react. This is why a PCT plan is always required.

P22’s test taper thread, if I am correct, said that 100mgs of enanthate a week does supress, just not fully. Your cycle would be 250mg+ a week meaning even more suppression. Suppression = PCT, therefore you should use PCT for your cycle.

Proviron without test would be silly. Test as we have already covered requires PCT. I have heard of var only cycles in the past, but one of these would never interest me. I’m of the philosophy that the mainstay of every cycle should be test.

I understand your not wanting to use drugs to get off of drugs. This is a very common thought. What you need to keep in mind is that they aren’t conflicting drugs.

Gear, SERM etc are grouped together when you make the decision to gear. Maybe someone would know of a totally safe cycle without PCT, but I wouldn’t dare try it.

Oh Man! Hey, can we have the Over 35 Forum back? Please!

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
Oh Man! Hey, can we have the Over 35 Forum back? Please![/quote]

Knock Knock who is there?

  • no one who [cares|listens]

Best we can do is post in the ‘get a life forum’ and start asking, then PM the ‘gang’ to get onto that thread. If we are asking, perhaps we should go for a TRT forum as a first choice, then over 35 as a second.

I think that the problem is that we, as a group, are not seen as a viable market group for the supplements.