That’s what I’m thinking! I want a Dr. like that.
I wish other things were out here in Japan. I can only top my TRT (read: blast & cruise) off with Primo as it’s the only Anabolic approved for medical use.
Hi thanks for your help Iron yuppie- after moving from 200mg of Test E to 400mg per week- the doc wanted me to stop everything for a couple of weeks- then do a PCT for 10 days- he took more blood work, etc., before I started up on 200mg Test E per week again- curious what you guys think of 200mg Test E PLUS 200mg of DECA per week compared to the 400mg of Test E only per week- as shown, the 400mg of Test E only got me over 2,000 … thanks again guys
adding- (forgot) as I have never tried DECA and taking only 200mg of DECA per week - with the 200mg of Test E per week- not sure if that’s enough DECA to make any difference- searching online you see all sorts of conflicting information - thinking my doc wasn’t wanting me to stay on 400 Test E per week “forever” which is why he suggested dropping back down to 200 plus 200 DECA.
I second that! A doctor that will give 400 mg of test, and or 200 test / 200 deca would be awesome.
This is borderline irresponsible on his part. Here’s why:
- A 10 day PCT is not enough for you to recover
- He is putting your endocrine system under unnecessary stress by yo-yoing your blood levels of testosterone
- Having test >1,000 is not good for long periods of time and it certainly isn’t within the prescribing guidelines for TRT
Are you in the US?
Deca can have a positive impact at 200mg/wk. Hell, even at 50mg/wk, there can be benefits to your joints/connective tissues. 200 can be enough for a nice slow bulk, without sides… though everyone responds differently.
Thanks “thisguyrighthere”. On a lot of the sites I am reading how 200mg isn’t worth the expense or the effort, etc., but at the same time I am not wanting to go for 400-500mg per week (plus I can’t get that much Decca from my doc I’m sure-lol ) so was questioning if the extra expense to have 200mg of Deca week added to the 200mg of Test E per week would be logical- guess a lot of my curiosity won’t be resolved till I try it- so far I went from 200mg of Test E per week to 400mg of Test E per week- which got my test levels up over 2,000 and free test up over 700… so dropping back down to 200mg of Test E per week but adding the 200mg of DECA per week… thanks again.
If your doc is prescribing 400mg of hormones weekly you aren’t getting “trt”. The concept of trt is to replace what the body would’ve naturally produced. That being said some people can push levels up to the top of normal (say top 1% of men… like 1300ng/dl) and get away with it and feel great, especially if that was the amount your body produced prior, but being at levels of 2000 for a prolonged period of time isn’t trt, it’s a steroid cycle (not that there’s anything wrong with cycling steroids), I just get annoyed when it gets mixed up with trt as trt already has enough unwarranted stigmatism behind it. I’m not sure how long it takes for adverse affects to happen, or whether they are serious enough to worry about at all, but if you decide to run 400mgs of hormones for the rest of your life you could be looking into some long term issues like an enlarged heart with negatively affected heart function, concentric left ventricular hypertrophy, myocardial fibrosis, thickening of the blood (this can be treated by donating blood and taking aspirin). I was thinking of running exactly what you are running now (200mg test 200mg deca for 20weeks), but the thought of heart enlargement put me off (not sure how long it takes to cause heart enlargement but the thought of dialated cardiomyopathy is terrifying, my family would never forgive me if I dropped dead from a condition I acquired), seriously, being on 400mg for long periods of time is a bad idea unless you are a competitive bodybuilder or pro athlete. You’ve been on for 10 weeks already, why not take ten or twenty weeks off and then start again, much safer if you take breaks and limit the amount of time you spend on supraphysiologic doses. When you got these tests showing your TT at slightly over 2000, was this a few days after the shot or at the nadir (right before next shot), if it was the nadir your peak levels of testosterone were likely up in the 3000s or perhaps even 4000, however everyone metabolises testosterone differently, seven days after a 250mg shot I come in at 500ng/dl, therefore I likely wouldn’t get to 2000 from 400mg for my peak or nadir. Out of curiousity, do you have a muscle wasting disease such as HIV or uncontrollable weight loss (sorry if being pushy here but I’m trying to figure out why a doctor would be prescribing these doses), it’s awesome if a doctor is willing to monitor people on cycles, but I think prescribing cycles would be irresponsible from a doctor as they have a “do no harm” policy, and by prescribing such high amounts of hormones this guy could be doing long term harm. Im not sure why your doctor would want you to run a ten day pct after cycle as
A: ten days isn’t enough for a PCT
B: you are on TRT therefore pct isn’t needed
Here’s a case report of a guy who developed heart failure from a mere 250mgs of testosterone per week, let alone 400mg.
Unreal… I always see you commenting about heart growth. What’s to say that the intense training that people on gear perform is the thing causing the heart growth, not the gear itself? Such as professional cyclists (not on gear) have enlarged hearts from so much intense training.
And for this case when I say gear let’s just refer to testosterone so we aren’t covering the entire steroid database. Love to hear your thoughts.
Sure there are a magnitude of studies showing thickening of the left ventricle in power athletes with or without anabolic steroid use. That being said, the thickening of the left ventricle when caused by natural adaptation to strength training (TYPICALLY) doesn’t cause a negative decrease in heart function via diastolic and systolic function. A few studies looking at AAS users vs natural bodybuilders and athletes have shown no difference in LV thickness or heart function, however other studies have shown AAS studies accentuate the thickening of the left ventricle caused by exercise. Furthermore, a few other studies comparing AAS users to natural athletes and bodybuilders have shown AAS users have substantial decreases in heart function via reduced left ventricular pumping capacity, longitudinal strain etc. These negative changes are corrrelated with a greatly enhanced risk of SCD (sudden cardiac death). Moreover animal studies show high concentrations of AAS directly cause apoptosis in heart cells (cell death), which may contribute to heart remodelling, Nandrolone in particular seems to raise/supress certain enzymes that directly contribute to cardiac hypertrophy and fibrosis. While many are quick to judge studies by saying 20mg/kg is far more than a human would take, that simply isn’t true. To calculate the human equivilent dose you need to divide the dose by something like 6.2 (I’ll post the exact equations later) However that means for a 200lb male would take only 290mgs of nandrolone to equate to 20mg/kg in a rat study, that being said rats may be more sensitive to androgens than humans. There have been no large scale studies backing up the claim of anabolic steroids causing cardiomyopathy, however there seems to be a relatively strong link between the two. Cyclists have eccentric cardiac hypertrophy (the type that causes enlargement of the part of the heart that is able to pump blood effectively) this type of cardiac hypertrophy is good, power sports and AAS tend to cause Concentric cardiac hypertrophy (the bad type of hypertrophy) causes the area that pumps blood to be squished/become smaller, therefore the hearts function is impaired. For testosterone, (excluding AAS as a whole) In rat studies testosterone has also been shown to be a potent stimulator of cardiac hypertrophy, induces apoptosis in heart cells of animals and cause myocardial fibrosis. That being said, doses of 5mg/kg per week in rats have been shown to cause substantial heart impairment in rats, which would equate to a 200lb male taking roughly 72mgs of testosterone per week, therefore I have reason to believe rats may be more sensitive to androgens. So gear related heart growth could be related to
A: chronic elevations in blood pressure
B: A direct effect on cardiac tissue
C: Thickened blood making it harder for the heart to pump
D: An exxagerated response to training via faster strength increase and exercise capacity.
I will be adding more but I will post just this info for now
Appreciate the info. That was a good read. You are a very knowledgeable guy (I already knew from your previous posts). Look forward to reading the rest of your thoughts.
I totally appreciate this info as well- I need to clarify something that I kept forgetting to put into my LONG wording- after the first TrT starting at 125-150mg finally at 200mg per week my testosterone came in at just under 1,000. My doc then suggested I stop the test E for two full weeks- taking nothing the next 10 days he had me injecting HCG and taking clomid- (for 10 days after the two week break).
In conversation with him when I went in for blood work- he agreed to let me bump up to 400mg per week so long as I continued the training and had blood work and mini physicals with him- this doc has an office in my gym by the way- when I was taking the 400mg of Test E per week (split into two shots like I did before) for about 2.5 months- my testosterone went to just over 2,000 with free test just over 700. He said everything else checked out heart, blood pressure, blood work- but didn’t think I should continue on the 400mg per week of Test E long term-
That is when he said if I wanted to try going back to the 200mg of Test E per week (split into two doses- he’s big on that) we could add the Decca at 200mg per week as well- I still haven’t started that program yet- as I am kinda cleansing (word he uses) so he can take some more blood work.
Before starting the 200mg of Test E and 200mg of DECA per week (both split into two doses) I was wondering if that would be beneficial for me in the gym- guess we really don’t know till I try this new regimen out. He also spoke to me about injectable amino acids that do something with a persons natural growth hormone production- I am along with a few more guys at different ages) am part of a special program with this guy- but he’s not treating us like lab rats- I am 26 by the way, and am the youngest in the program- there is a guy in his 40’s, even on in his 70’s that is in fantastic physical condition. he monitors the diet, the exercise we do, etc., etc.,
I’m not thinking of this amino acids injection to help GH production as of yet- but am considering the 200mg of Test E and 200mg of DECA per week (split into two doses) at my session with the doc this afternoon- when I talked about this new protocol - he did advise me that I should NOT be going back to 400mg of Test E per week- that I should not be in the 2,000 range long term- it kinda echos what you are saying as well… I’m just not sure if the DECA add on will do anything since it’s only 200mg of DECA per week- but I’ll still be on the TEST E per week- one of the guys is going to try these injections- was told they are not actual GH injections- but amino acids and something else- that will stimulate a persons only GH to release- there are only so many shots I want to take per week-
That being said- he suggested something (to add to the 200mg of Test and 200mg of DECA) L-Arginine injections that I am to take about an hour before my workouts- I would stop by his office for the shot- then hit the weights at the gym directly after- he said there are studies that L-Arginine injections just before a workout will stimulate HG production-
Lots of stuff to read here I know- but you clearly know a lot (several of the guys here do) so I am soaking up any knowledge I can about all this stuff-
I do have to say- that guy who is 76 is amazing - when I spoke with him- he has worked out most of his life- and always been clean- only now he is on TrT to help with gravity he says-- he might do the amino acids injections to stimulate his own GH production. Will be interesting to see how he progresses.
Deca at 200mgs PW is more than enough to stimulate anabolism of tissues, hell in HIV studies weight gain (in muscle mass) has been documented on doses as little as 100mg every 2 weeks, and medical guidelines for the prescribing of deca for weight gain following catabolic illness is 25-50mg every 3-4 weeks (these guidelines are highly inneffective though). Is the 76 year old using 200mg per week or more, just curious, has he used gear for a while, I’m interested in finding long term users of gear (say guys in their 70s or 80s) and finding out whether they have had heart troubles. 200mg test and 200mg deca should theoretically give more gains than 400mg test alone due to the fact deca has a higher anabolic rating than testosterone. If we went by paper (which isn’t always right) you should get the gains of roughly 450mgs of test PW from a 200/200 split. Deca is likely far worse on the heart in terms of cardiac remodelling long term, however anecdotally it can significantly reduce joint pain. I believe you should take a break before starting 200mg test/200mg deca, cruise at a while at 200mg test before starting the deca, how is your hematocrit. I don’t know why your doc had you on clomid for ten days, there’s no point if on TRT. Seriously be careful though, hormones aren’t something to play around with unless you are sure you are ok with the long term risks or are extremely educated. As for testosterone being around 1000 on 200mg weekly, was these levels done a few days post shot or were they taken seven days post shot, because if it is the latter your peak was likely much higher than 1000. Secondly, are you taking test C or test E (trying to figure out if this clinic is in the us, because if it’s in Aus… I oughta give it a shot ) Also, with that study about the man using a mere 250mgs for 2 years contracting heart failure, I somehow doubt he was only on testosterone at a miniscule dose of 250mg, previous blood tests had shown his testosterone levels to be between 1300-1900 ng/dl, considering before TRT my natural testosterone levels were at 1052ng/dl I find it hard to believe he wasn’t using other drugs. It’s very possible he was blasting other compounds, using other drugs such as HGH, IGF-1, DNP, cocaine and stimulants or whatnot, that’s the problem with case studies. Considering his Free T was nearly 4 times the upper limit on the referance range I would guess he was using other anabolics that he didn’t declare, just wanted to show that hormones can have serious adverse affects
MORE heart stuff
I believe whether someone experiences cardiac hypertrophy related to AAS use is largely based on genetic response to steroids. Some people seem to be able to get away with AAS use for very long periods of time (Arnold used since he was around 15, sylvester stallone has been using since I would say his early to mid twenties and he is in his seventies now, and he uses HGH too), Rich Piana got away with abusing the absolute shit out of everything for thirty years, Ronnie coleman is still alive (with kids), yet Dallas Mcarver dropped at 26 (although he was using insane doses considering his Testosterone was 57,000ng/dl or something like that. Greg Kovacs dropped in his 40’s Dan Pucket Dropped in his 20’s, I personally know of one guy that knows a guy that dropped in his 40’s and he had been using since high school. Then again, lots of people drop in their 30s and 40s with todays shitty sedentary lifestyles, plus drug use, alcohol abuse, fast food, I just haven’t figured out which lifestyle is more lethal yet. It is likely certain AAS are more/less toxic to the heart than others. Believe it or not in a study where castrated rats were given 2mg/kg per day of trenbolone, equivilent to around 200mg per week for a 200lb male, it prevented heart remodelling and showed less prostate enlargement vs testosterone at an equivilent dose. (Trenbolone isn’t safe, it is probably one of the least safe AAS out there, however I guess it shows rats react differently to humans. Seriously, tren is probably really bad for you, no studies on it but based on anecdotal effects that people have reported I’d steer clear unless you wanted to be a competitive bodybuilder. Here’s a link to the study https://academic.oup.com/endo/article/157/1/368/2251856 . Also Dallas had a family history of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, high cholesterol and high blood pressure… His heart was found to weigh around 800grams (extremely enlarged). Not to mention Clen, T3, HGH, IGF-1 all put strain on the heart, however in some studies heart enlargement and was associated with negative changes in heart function in bodybuilders who abused AAS without stimulants, HGH or other drugs. If you aren’t intending on making money through fitness (I hope to be a professional bodybuilder one day), stay on for the shortest amount of time, keep doses to a minimum and get blood work done periodically, get semi regular ECG’s if you can, I’m thinking of getting one before I use anything (should’ve gotten one before TRT). Other contributers to heart enlargement are elevated blood pressure and high hematocrit as it is harder for the heart to pump thick blood, so keep BP under control on gear, thankfully I’m naturally hypotensive (BP is 90/60, sometimes lower, when it dips too low I get very dizzy though), therefore HBP is not and will likely never be an issue for me.
Unreal, appreciate all the information. You make all the research I’ve done look like nothing lol. Your knowledge is insane. I Defiantly think above all else, genetics play the biggest factor. It’s absolutely insane that Dallas had that much testosterone in his body. Obviously, like you pointed out, excessive use will run higher risk of complications. Appreciate you letting me pick your brain.
Thanks unreal- The elderly guy- in his 70’s I believe is on tRt at 200mg per week- all of us started off with lower amounts then had it bumped up to 200mg per week- oh it’s Test E by the way. I think I am the only one that the doc permitted to try the 400mg of Test E per week- I did it for about 10 weeks- then he was fairly strict about nothing injected for two weeks then the following 10 days- injecting HCG and taking climid pills- oh, also Andrazole (sp?) so after that time off- I began the 400mg of Test E per week (split into two shots) along with the weekly Andrazole pill and an HCG shot each week it was this combo that caused my numbers to go over 2,000 and free testosterone over 700 which he was a bit surprised at- said he had not encountered many people who had a test reading that high- as I was taking shots every 3.5 day-from day one- the blood draw is always scheduled on the day before my shot- so that means- there is a 3.5 day break from the previous shot- but I was still at 2,000 - so right now I am not doing anything- he showed me how to fill a syringe with 100mg of DECA and use the same syringe to backfill 100mg of Test E - which–when I begin - will be the protocol- along with Andrazole and HCG injection each week for I think he wants to go only 20 weeks - said I shouldn’t be on DECA more than 20 weeks - think I then return to only 200mg of Test E per week after the 20 weeks- don’t think I will be going back to the 400mg of Test E per week- the group of us in this study he is conducting all meet up with him each week- to check in- I know the 70ish year old guy was clean all his life- he began tRt therapy (now he’s on 200mg of Test E per week) due to libido issues and feeling kinda sluggish- there is one guy in our group who is also taking something called Anavar… along with the Testosterone
What do you think of the L-Argine injections before workouts ? As far as I know, I am the only one that will be trying this out (Adding it to the DECA and TEST E shots- the Arginine needs to be injected before my workouts he stressed- another guy in his 30’s is testing out an amino acid mix (29 amino acids?) that is suppose to stimulate a gland to produce more natural GH. I don’t think this doc uses “real” GH injections… I’m in the states by the way. This gym is very modern- I have a free membership through my work- but pay extra of course for all this other stuff- the gym also has a skin care facility for facials, laser peels and is working on adding eye lifts, hypo suction, etc., to their stuff- kinda amazing place- All of these docs label themselves as anti-aging docs but all are licensed physicians - and there is no shortage of patients wanting to be on tRt… this one doc that I see (along with the rest of the guys in my group) is doing this special study as to how people of different ages and activity levels rescind to these things- I guess the only “bad” part is- there are constant interviews with the staff- "how do you feel, what was your workout like after the shot, etc., etc., etc., we also write down everything that goes in the mouth- they don’t really stress what not to eat just want to know exactly what was consumed- and calories, etc., they have a system to figure all that out-
I believe you are talking about anastrazole, (arimidex). Arimidex is an aromatase inhibitor, I used it when I was younger (prescribed by a doc) at 1mg A DAY to stop my growth plates from prematurely fusing, it screwed my joints up badly, I was on for two years at this very high dose, after stopping use my E2 never bounced back and it’s still super, super low, even on TRT. Crashing E2 is bad for joint health, bone density and overall health. I even have osteopenia in certain parts of my spine, AAS would definately help me there. I broke my ankle a few years ago and had to get pins put in it surgically, I believe the only reason I broke that ankle was due to the arimidex I was pushed onto someone and my ankle landed on an awkward position, instead of simply getting a sprain or strain, the ankle just snapped. I was unaware that it was broken for about three days, so I was walking and running on it (running and walking was very difficult, I kept falling). Sadly my ankle has never really been the same since that incident, however TRT doses of anastrazole are far lower than what I was taking, therefore I wouldn’t worry about it. As to the use of injectable amino acids, I’m actually not sure about that, you could give it a shot, I know Frank Zane (old school bodybuilder) used injectable amino acids. Be careful about how much you inject though. Anavar (oxandrolone) is a dihydrotestosterone derived C17AA anabolic steroid with a VERY high anabolic to androgenic ratio, it has been used successfully to treat MANY conditions such as short stature in children, osteoporosis, weight loss, aids, severe burns alcoholic hepatitis (which is strange considering anavar itself is mildly hepatotoxic, yet marketedly less so compared to other orals). Var will strongly supress HDL cholesterol and increase LDL cholesterol, however this is dose dependant. As for nandrolone, 20 weeks at 200mg with 200mgs of test is actually a solid cycle, if you train right you could see some serious gains, that being said you will need to retrieve the deca from a compounding pharmacy since organon no longer produces it in the USA. With shots every 3.5 days levels should be relatively stable, so no nadirs, massive peaks or troughs. As for the free T stuff, 700 is pretty high, that one guy on 250mgs per week with heart failure had a free t of like 480 or something which led me to believe he was using other stuff, however maybe it’s possible he was just using testosteorne, but I don’t see how a level of 1300-1900 could cause heart failure so quickly unless the guy had undiagnosed cardiomyopathy prior to using.
Thanks unreal… The Anastrazole- dose is .5 per week- I have 1mg pills that I cut in half- that plus the injectable HCG 250iu twice a week- then the 200mg of Test E and 200mg of DECA per week- that’s the program for now. I’m so disheartened to hear about all the issues you had with your injuries- I am trying really hard not to get injured- that being said, I tore a bicep tendon a few years back- which has healed ok, then last year while biking in a marathon from SF to LA my bike hit a wet patch of leaves and I went flying- woke up with a broken collar bone that needed immediate repair (two metal plates on each side of the collar bone) and I also broke a few ribs which ended up puncturing a lung- it was pretty bad- a simple slip on wet leaves did all that to me- my bike- didn’t have a scratch - crazy huh – so I am so overly careful now so as not to do anymore injuries-
This program I am in - with a few other guys- I know it’s kinda weird sounding on the surface- but am sure it’s about this (I call it) “Beverly Hills Type Gym” wanting to research everything possible regarding anti-aging stuff- the docs seem extremely knowledgeable and as I said when I tried out the 400mg of test E per week for 10 or 12 weeks- and my testosterone shot up to over 2,000 the doc did extensive blood work and I saw the reports- everything was within range but the doc strongly said I should not be injecting 400mg of Test E per week “forever” as I am not a competitive bodybuilder or anything like that-
I am curious and kinda nervous about adding the 200mg of DECA to the 200mg of Test E per week as I have never really done “steroids” per se… the tRt all came about due to low testosterone - it was in the high 100’s and low 200’s when I was tested- I am in reasonably good shape now but I had childhood lukemia so that might have something to do with the low testosterone- but anyways when I went through the process of tRt researching and interviewing with this doc- and saw how I responded so positively he then asked me about joining a program he was putting together- next thing ya know I am part of a group of guys from my age to age 76 all part of this group with the tRt group.
It is kinda strange to see people going into the Skin Care Lab and coming out with their faces all bandaged up- laser peels and all that sort of thing- after all this IS a gym - well so I thought lol lol it boggles my mind some some of these people pay 4,000 a month for things like Growth Hormone injections - don’t freak out - but there is even a place where women go to have there va- J-J cleaned- I think it’s called Colon Cleansing - lol lol can’t imagine- but people have it done- while getting their toe nails done- imagine being there with a ladies va J-J being hosed out and you are putting nail polish on her- lol lol. but that’s the kind of gym this is- as I said I have a free membership through my work- but all this other shit cost a lot extra-
Again thanks for your imput- I do trust my doc but it’s always nice to run stuff by other people who know this stuff- so to restate- soon I’ll be on .5 of the Anastrozole per week, 500iu of HCG (split into two shots per week) 200mg of Test E and 200mg of DECA (split into two shots per week). oh yea and before each workout I stop by the docs office for an L_Argine injection before my workout-
I’ll be sure to post blood work and hope this stuff will help- would suck if going through all these injections and I don’t grow any. lol lol
Well chemotherapy can cause infertility and hypogonadism, so that is likely the cause, sorry about the lukemia, that really sucks. As to the woman’s cleansing thing, colon cleansing makes me think they’re giving enemas, which is… strange to have someone administer that in a gym. as to the cleansing of the “privates” I believe that isn’t good for the women long term as it can throw off the required balance of vaginal bacteria and it can push harmful bacteria into the uterus instead of the body disposing of said bacteria. As to your blood tests, 100s to low 200s is REEEAAALLLY low, I mean you must have felt just awful, I know I completely
Lose motivation and sleep 24/7 when my test is in the low 100s, I also turn into an asshole. You must be feeling like a million bucks now that your hormones have been optimised. I wish you the best of luck with your cycle, I might try run some deca in the near future too given I have really really really bad joint pain sometimes.