T Nation

Terrorism in Russia


How can anyone do this

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3627678.stm

May God bless them all

Bluey

There is no answer to that question…unless you attribute it to pure evil.

I always wanted to believe that there are more decent people in the world than there are monsters, and a decent person will simply call for the eradication of anyone who supports or partakes in this kind of activity. No excuses. No bogus reasoning about “imperialism” or “oppression”. Eradication.

It’s a screwed up world…

It is very tragic – not only did they target civilians, but they targeted children. Reports are maintaining that, in addition to Chechen terrorists, there were also Arab terrorists involved – don’t know if they’re true, but that’s what the news anchor was saying.

Aside from the horror of seeing what was wrought in Russia, the additional horror on top of that is the idea that terrorists may try to do the same here. We must do everything in our power to prevent that.

there are no cameras to record the rapes and killings the russian soldiers are commiting in chechenya.you dont see that in news.what happend here is wrong.but lets not forget who started this all.it was Russia!

[quote]Pake wrote:
there are no cameras to record the rapes and killings the russian soldiers are commiting in chechenya.you dont see that in news.what happend here is wrong.but lets not forget who started this all.it was Russia![/quote]

There’s always someone willing to justify anything.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Pake wrote:
there are no cameras to record the rapes and killings the russian soldiers are commiting in chechenya.you dont see that in news.what happend here is wrong.but lets not forget who started this all.it was Russia!

There’s always someone willing to justify anything.[/quote]

There’s always someone willing to deny history.

Oh get real. Nobody here is trying to justify such a horrible event. At least I hope not. However, the poster makes a point. Until we stop having those with power from making enemies of those without power, then acts or retaliation or retribution will occur.

This doesn’t mean it should happen, or that it can be justified, but that this is the way the world is working. We can’t just bury our heads in the sand and wish it would go away.

For example, is there any doubt in anyones mind that the incidents at Abu Ghraib will foster hatred and possibly result in some victim of that idiocy or the offspring of some victim of that idiocy committing a terrorist activity?

I am not trying to justify it or condone it, but simply trying to show that abuse of power simply results in hatred and retaliation. This is gang or gutter mentality brought to the international level.

With the incredible leverage that technology gives even one lone fanatic we need to work really hard not to create armies of fanatics. Chasing them down and shooting them is a temporary solution, when, if ever, are we going to find a permanent one? Will we even bother trying?

For vroom and pake,

read my 1st post here again. I spoke about excuse-makers because I knew it was coming. Yea…I know…your not condoning it, but just offering any kind of explanation for such evil is condoning it.

There is nothing you could do to me that would cause me to target and kill children as young as 3 enmasse. I’ll give you the fact that oppression can make people revolt strongly. I would fight if I was oppressed enough…but I would fight my oppressors, not 3 year old children. Islamic radicals miss this point. Instead of following the path of peaceful, or at least honorable, resistance, they go down the road of absolute and total barbarism.

Mind you, I am not too sympathetic to most of their causes anyway(but thats another story). But if they tried to make their case in a halfway decent and honorable way, I would be more apt to listen. Instead they perpetrate acts like this and there are still people out there like you two who try to offer some justification of their behavior. Disgusting, frankly.

I dont know what goes on up in Canada, but in the United States we have a tradition of confronting evil people and
overcoming them. Mind you, this does not include any capitulating to their demands. We dont give up as easily as you do either, and firmly believe that the war against islamic terror can be won with enough strength and conviction.

JD,

Wanted to repost this:

"Mind you, I am not too sympathetic to most of their causes anyway(but thats another story). But if they tried to make their case in a halfway decent and honorable way, I would be more apt to listen. Instead they perpetrate acts like this and there are still people out there like you two who try to offer some justification of their behavior. Disgusting, frankly.

I dont know what goes on up in Canada, but in the United States we have a tradition of confronting evil people and
overcoming them. Mind you, this does not include any capitulating to their demands. We dont give up as easily as you do either, and firmly believe that the war against islamic terror can be won with enough strength and conviction."

Strong in the force are you. Keep it up.

JeffR

JD, you miss my point entirely. Deciding to exterminate islamic fundamentalists from the face of the earth is probably an impossible mission. You can go on killing and bombing for another fifty years and still things will not have changed.

I don’t know where you get off thinking I am implying appeasement or giving up or any nonsense like that. Maybe if you opened your eyes and thought about what I am saying you would see that.

Who were the enemies of WWII? Among them were Germany and Japan. Are they enemies now? No. Did this occur through appeasement and giving up? Not a chance.

However, fanatics are somewhat of a different animal. They cross international boundaries and they don’t reflect the majority of the population of the countries they act from within.

The problem? Taking over Iraq has a good chance of pissing off the general populace, because most of the general populace has never done anything to the US and now they have a war in their back yard.

This is a very difficult road to peace, no matter how powerful the troop levels, as the terrorists just hide and strike whenever a new brainwashed recruit comes along.

You want an end to terrorism? Don’t cry about people trying to discuss the issues rationally. Find a way to dry up the source of brainwashed fanatics and you’ll have the answer.

It’s not about justification, appeasement, giving up or any silly notions like that. It’s about taking a look at the whole situation and trying to find a solution.

One idea, which the US is trying, is to cut the head off of the snake. Go after the leadership. Go after countries that sponsor terrorism. Another is to become a police state and spy on all of your citizens (like the UK).

Another one, which is going to be a bit radical, is to befriend the herd of potential brainwashees before they get brainwashed. Give them the “brainwashing antidote” before they are indoctrinated into fundamentalism.

Now, all that being said, you don’t make friends by abusing them. Now, if you read justification, appeasement or giving up into all that, have it your own way, because it simply is not there.

If you don’t see far enough ahead to see why I am talking about this stuff, that is fine. However, you don’t have to go on am emotional attack just because you don’t see, agree or understand – whatever the case may be.

To put it simply… that creates enemies… and we know how the cycle of enmity works by now don’t we?

I didnt miss your point…I was appalled by its timing. Here are your words…

“I am not trying to justify it or condone it, but simply trying to show that abuse of power simply results in hatred and retaliation. This is gang or gutter mentality brought to the international level.”

First you include the pat disclaimer about not condoning such actions, but implied in your little pearl about abuse of power is a justification for what happened in that school house. It is distant, but honest men will see it.

In my mind, there can never be an explanation or justification for that behavior. I dont care what Russians do.
A decent human being will not sacrifice their humanity and deliberately blow up toddlers, no matter how far they are pushed. Are you getting MY point?

There is no way for the world to get at the “root cause” of radical Islamic anger, as you more left-leaning types like to pretend. The root cause, if there is one, is the desire of the fundamentalists to force their religion on the West and rewrite the history that they wound up on the losing end of. This is the motivation of the terrorist leaders. Their underlings may share this belief, or they may be foolish enough to attach themselves to more “patriotic” causes. Either way it doesnt realy matter. There is nothing we can do to appease them. Israel isnt going to drop into the sea. The west is not leaving the arabian penisula and I sure as hell am not going to start praying to mecca 5 times a day. And you know what, it doesnt matter anyway…because if you are barbaric enough to carry out these acts, you dont deserve any compromise and good men should not try to understand you.

I am certain we are on the right path by killing terrorist where we find them and trying to support democracy in the middle east. If the free countries of the world were to unify to aggressively attack terrorism and terrorist sponsoring states, the problem would die on the vine. You dont think there is that much power in the free world? You’re crazy then. My concern is the european (or european-influenced)cowards who refuse to fully stand up to this problem. Aggressive millitary action, aggressive security precautions, aggressive intelligence gathering and aggressive promotion of democracy will lead to victory. You see a common theme?

Regardless of all this, in regards to this topic you could have left it at “this is barbarism and I can’t understand it”. Instead, you had to drop the tired old bullshit about “abuse of power” and it has no place in this particular discussion.

[quote]Pake wrote:
there are no cameras to record the rapes and killings the russian soldiers are commiting in chechenya.you dont see that in news.what happend here is wrong.but lets not forget who started this all.it was Russia![/quote]

The idea of the post was to express sorrow.

But anyway:

Well then why kill Ossicians men, women and children? The Osscians are not Russians (different peoples as different as Chenchens and Russians are to each other). Both are Christians, I guess that makes it justified in your eyes and Jihadie?s eyes? More and more it seems obvious that Muslims violently refuse to live amongst others. We should give them their “holy lands” (not including the West, Russia, Israel etc) on the condition that they ALL have to live there and no where else. Then there is no circle of violence, no terrorism in the West, no revenge/security wars in the Middle East.

After this why is the US government launching and backing coups (e.g. the Rose revolution in Georgia) is such a volatile region?

This sums it up nicely

JD,

I can tell you have been upset by recent events, but that doesn’t mean you have to invent motives for other peoples comments.

There is no attempt at justification in anything I have written.

If the only tool you have is violence, then you go and find a way to fight with violence. I on the other hand have outgrown violence, I am getting a bit old for it to be honest.

Things were not always the way they are now and they will not stay this way forever either. How and where that change is going to occur is what I am talking about.

Anyhow, all actions have consequences, and whether you are man enough to realize that and to think about that as policies are decided, is entirely up to you.

I have absolutely no idea how anybody could be warped enough to do what was done in Russia. I’d never even want to try to understand that thinking. However, I will continue to think about ways that it can be prevented, whether you like it or not.

Grow up and learn to think.

Vroom,

You have outgrown violence? You would not defend yourself or your wife or child? How silly you sound in your arrogant aloofness. Violence is a horrible thing(Ive seen my share, by the way), but it can be neccessary and just at times. Even Ghandi believed this to be the case. I am sure you could be brought to violence, if the situation demanded it. You should take better care before making statements like that.

I consider myself a simple man. I’ve had the fortune of being well educated, but I’m simple none the less. I understand that you try and see an issue from all sides, and I can appreciate that. However, it seems to me that you, and many others like you who share your leanings, never seem to be able to reach a conclusion. Or worse, you refuse to place blame where it belongs…perhaps it is because of nationalistic jealousy, perhaps it is because of personality differences between men like you and men like me, perhaps it is something else, I don’t know.

I have looked at this problem enough to come to my conclusions, and I stand by them.

Either way…don’t scold me to “grow up and learn to think”. Thats your self-righteous arrogance again. I have thought about this as much as you.

I’ve explained myself enough in regards to the way I feel about the topic that started this thread. I’m sorry that you could not understand what I was saying.

[quote]vroom wrote:
.
I will continue to think about ways that it can be prevented, whether you like it or not.

[/quote]

I absolutely agree that more violence is not a solution. But then neither is doing nothing. Could you suggest anything that would prevent future actions?

Violence is the most basic and primitive way of dealing with problems. That is all these people know…so what we as civilized people have to do is fight the fire with a shitload more fire and bring the fight to their doorstep. And I would be honored to do the knocking. RLTW

rangertab75

Hi Jack!
I may be late to this thread, but I just had to comment. JD and JeffR, you gotta stop reading American history books and take a look the real American tradition of confronting evil. Try checking into 2 little known conflicts called the first and second World Wars. I guess the “bad guys” were eventually confronted, it just took a couple of years, and a couple of direct attacks, for the US to get involved in each. It’s okay, Canada was there to help the rest of the world.
Were the Vietnamese evil, or do they not count since they were not “overcome”?
I guess I’m just not clear on what this great US tradition is, or where Canada gives up easily. Why comment on Canada giving up, if you really know nothing of what goes on in Canada (your words) and our respective countries’ involvement in the rest of the world (Iraq excepted)?
Note that I am NOT trying to start a lame pissing contest of “my coutnry is better than yours”. I love both countries, and felt that I need to set the record straight (and ask a couple of valid Q’s).
There’s a reason why Canada is known the world over as a peacekeeping nation. That’s a military tradition that has been earned.

Cheers

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I dont know what goes on up in Canada, but in the United States we have a tradition of confronting evil people and overcoming them. Mind you, this does not include any capitulating to their demands. We dont give up as easily as you do either, and firmly believe that the war against islamic terror can be won with enough strength and conviction."JeffR[/quote]

vroom,

I agree with a lot of your points in your first post. I would much prefer a way to end terrorism that doesn’t shed any blood, but unfortunately the crisis has escalated beyond a settlement by reasonable means. And not to mention the fact that there is nothing to negotiate from there point of view. I truly believe the only solution is the extermination of militant islam.

I look at terrorism as a social VIRUS that rises from oppressed cultures and societies. How that condition came about is another story with many at fault. Yet, the only way I know how to get rid of a virus is to eliminate it. You can’t treat it, isolate it or ignore it. As long as a virus exists it spreads along the path of least resistance.

A good example is the misquito and West Nile Virus. Here in SoCal, we’ve had quite a few cases of it with a few deaths. It’s seriously a threat, especially for someone like me who naturally attracts a lot of misquitos. First, they tell you to wear misquito repellent (eliminating yourself as a terrorist target). When that doesn’t work they advise everyone to drain and empty pools of water where misquito eggs are planted (eliminate the terrorist training camps). When that doesn’t work, the only alternative is to start spraying pesticides to cut down the misquito population in hopes of totally eliminating it (using lethal force to eliminate terrorists). The irony is that the counties don’t even think twice about spraying pesticides when the fruit fly pops its head.

That’s why I support this war on terror with relentless fervor. I fear that those in the civilized world who have a strong conscience will waste even more time trying to find a solution that isn’t there. I truly applaud them for their efforts, but now that the writing is on the wall with the blood of innocent children, it’s time to face reality and get the job done. The sooner it’s over with the faster the world can start healing again. There will be a lot of innocent blood spilt and such is the nature of war, but to drag it out with trying to win the peace before the war is won just endures the suffering for those caught in the middle.

It’s time for the civilized world to unite in elminating militant islam, the source of most modern terrorism. My heart goes out to the who lost their children in Russia. This is human nature at its absolute worse.