T Nation

Temporal Nutrition vs. Doggcrapp Nutrition

I’m not doing Doggcrapp, but I like to read up on different nutrition strategies. Temporal nutrition and other articles here have stated that fat (good kind like mono or fish oil) at the pre-bed meal will help slow down the protein digestion throughout the night.

However, Doggcrapp’s nutrition strategy prohibits any fats along at this pre-bed meal. Any scientific evidence for this and has anyone had more success with one vs. the other?

Obviously you don’t know much about DC.

He doesn’t prohibit or encourage anything.

He gives a basic set of guidelines=carb cutoffs, splitting p+f/P+C.

DC is very adament about NOT promoting any specific type of eating suggestions because everyone is different.

He’s had trainees eat ice cream before and trainees eat protein only before bed.

He doesn’t promote nor inhibit anything dietary wise.

He only suggests very very basic solid nutrition guidelines that everyone already knows.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
Obviously you don’t know much about DC.

He doesn’t prohibit or encourage anything.

He gives a basic set of guidelines=carb cutoffs, splitting p+f/P+C.

DC is very adament about NOT promoting any specific type of eating suggestions because everyone is different.

He’s had trainees eat ice cream before and trainees eat protein only before bed.

He doesn’t promote nor inhibit anything dietary wise.

He only suggests very very basic solid nutrition guidelines that everyone already knows.[/quote]

You’re absolutely right. I don’t know much about DC. I was just reading up to stay informed. Thanks.

A fat in a liquid form will not slow the absorption of protein. However, it can be used as a fuel source during the night as opposed to the protein.

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
A fat in a liquid form will not slow the absorption of protein. [/quote]

Care to post a source or some info regarding the truth or lack thereof of this statement?

I’m serious…I’ve never heard this.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
A fat in a liquid form will not slow the absorption of protein.

Care to post a source or some info regarding the truth or lack thereof of this statement?

I’m serious…I’ve never heard this.[/quote]

Delay in the digestion due to fats comes from:

When food is in a solid state (think steak), it’s delayed by the breakdown of the bolus (almost like a solid state) into chyme(sp?) (semi liquid state).

or

The emulsification of a saturated fat or transfatty acid in the small intestine. Even then, at this point the absortion of amino’s has already taken place.

With a shake (like oil or peanut butter mixed with a liquid protein), this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant. You cant compare red meat (fats) to oils. So, when your fat amount is about 15grams (like 1 tbls of olive oil) the delay in amino acid absortion is virtually non-existant. It’s virtually in a pre-digested state.

It’s whole food where fat delays digestion the most. Even then, the actual absortion of nutrients (amino’s specifically) isn’t altered that much. The process of breaking down whole foods and trasnfering them to the lower part of the stomach and into the small intestine is a much slower process because of its makeup.

Lipid molecules do take longer to be metabolized, but (as above) it doesn’t effect the absoprtion of the amino’s. Only in a soild food state.

Is this lack thereof enough?

DC nutrition is “Do what you need to to fuel your body and grow as efficiently as possible while minimizing fat gains by taking various precautionary measures dependent entirely on your individual tendencies.”

This is something that needs to be classified seperately? I was pretty sure this is what we always want to do.

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
A fat in a liquid form will not slow the absorption of protein.

Care to post a source or some info regarding the truth or lack thereof of this statement?

I’m serious…I’ve never heard this.

Delay in the digestion due to fats comes from:

When food is in a solid state (think steak), it’s delayed by the breakdown of the bolus (almost like a solid state) into chyme(sp?) (semi liquid state).

or

The emulsification of a saturated fat or transfatty acid in the small intestine. Even then, at this point the absortion of amino’s has already taken place.

With a shake (like oil or peanut butter mixed with a liquid protein), this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant. You cant compare red meat (fats) to oils. So, when your fat amount is about 15grams (like 1 tbls of olive oil) the delay in amino acid absortion is virtually non-existant. It’s virtually in a pre-digested state.

It’s whole food where fat delays digestion the most. Even then, the actual absortion of nutrients (amino’s specifically) isn’t altered that much. The process of breaking down whole foods and trasnfering them to the lower part of the stomach and into the small intestine is a much slower process because of its makeup.

Lipid molecules do take longer to be metabolized, but (as above) it doesn’t effect the absoprtion of the amino’s. Only in a soild food state.

Is this lack thereof enough? [/quote]

I ask for a source. Not your thought process.
I don’t really disagree with your thought process. But I’m still interested in a source. Something scientific…

Theories don’t always turn out in application you know.

For what its worth…werent some of the studies that showed that ingesting fats with a carb source slowed digestion of the carbs done using fish oil…a liquid fat?

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
For what its worth…werent some of the studies that showed that ingesting fats with a carb source slowed digestion of the carbs done using fish oil…a liquid fat?[/quote]

Not digestion. I believe you are thinking insulin spike. We are talking about slowing absorption rate of protein.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
A fat in a liquid form will not slow the absorption of protein.

Care to post a source or some info regarding the truth or lack thereof of this statement?

I’m serious…I’ve never heard this.

Delay in the digestion due to fats comes from:

When food is in a solid state (think steak), it’s delayed by the breakdown of the bolus (almost like a solid state) into chyme(sp?) (semi liquid state).

or

The emulsification of a saturated fat or transfatty acid in the small intestine. Even then, at this point the absortion of amino’s has already taken place.

With a shake (like oil or peanut butter mixed with a liquid protein), this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant. You cant compare red meat (fats) to oils. So, when your fat amount is about 15grams (like 1 tbls of olive oil) the delay in amino acid absortion is virtually non-existant. It’s virtually in a pre-digested state.

It’s whole food where fat delays digestion the most. Even then, the actual absortion of nutrients (amino’s specifically) isn’t altered that much. The process of breaking down whole foods and trasnfering them to the lower part of the stomach and into the small intestine is a much slower process because of its makeup.

Lipid molecules do take longer to be metabolized, but (as above) it doesn’t effect the absoprtion of the amino’s. Only in a soild food state.

Is this lack thereof enough?

I ask for a source. Not your thought process.
I don’t really disagree with your thought process. But I’m still interested in a source. Something scientific…

Theories don’t always turn out in application you know.
[/quote]

Haha, are you serious? This isn’t theory. This is human biology. Pick-up a college text on biology and anything that has ‘human metabolism’ in the title. My text books are long gone so you have to do the foot work yourself.

I provided you with information on the digestion process. This is fact. All you need to do is validate this on your own. When you do, this would conclusively demonstrate that I am right. No?

How can this be disagreed with? If you dont know how food is digested, then how can maintain or even think that oil slows the absorption of protein? Where did you learn that oil slows down protein absorption? This is important, because I need to know where you are coming from with this.

I told you I didn’t disagree. And I really think I misunderstood what your were saying. I see you said ‘absorption of protein’ where I was thinking more along the lines of absorption of food.

People always say fat slows down your digestion/absorption of other nutrients.

So basically your saying that if I put EVOO in my whey shake it would make no difference in the absorption and utilization of my protein?

Not really sure why your getting so defensive…I have yet to say you are incorrect, and I really just think you misunderstood me…I suppose you’d have the right to be angry if I was a so called personal trainer or nutrition major…but alas, I study business, lift weights and eat. The rest I try to pick up along the way. Sorry my questions offended you so bad. I have a nutrition text book laying around, I suppose reading that will be easier and more productive than talking to an ass.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
I told you I didn’t disagree. And I really think I misunderstood what your were saying. I see you said ‘absorption of protein’ where I was thinking more along the lines of absorption of food.

People always say fat slows down your digestion/absorption of other nutrients.

So basically your saying that if I put EVOO in my whey shake it would make no difference in the absorption and utilization of my protein?

Not really sure why your getting so defensive…I have yet to say you are incorrect, and I really just think you misunderstood me…I suppose you’d have the right to be angry if I was a so called personal trainer or nutrition major…but alas, I study business, lift weights and eat. The rest I try to pick up along the way. Sorry my questions offended you so bad. I have a nutrition text book laying around, I suppose reading that will be easier and more productive than talking to an ass.[/quote]

I’m not getting defensive. But, I didn’t mean to come across like a jerk either. I must have misunderstood you, so if I came across like an ass, then I’m sorry.

I’ve had this type of discussion about three hundred times so I guess I tend to get short with people.

And yes, in response to your questions about EVo inshakes. It will not affect protein absorption rate.

[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
GetSwole wrote:
I told you I didn’t disagree. And I really think I misunderstood what your were saying. I see you said ‘absorption of protein’ where I was thinking more along the lines of absorption of food.

People always say fat slows down your digestion/absorption of other nutrients.

So basically your saying that if I put EVOO in my whey shake it would make no difference in the absorption and utilization of my protein?

Not really sure why your getting so defensive…I have yet to say you are incorrect, and I really just think you misunderstood me…I suppose you’d have the right to be angry if I was a so called personal trainer or nutrition major…but alas, I study business, lift weights and eat. The rest I try to pick up along the way. Sorry my questions offended you so bad. I have a nutrition text book laying around, I suppose reading that will be easier and more productive than talking to an ass.

I’m not getting defensive. But, I didn’t mean to come across like a jerk either. I must have misunderstood you, so if I came across like an ass, then I’m sorry.

I’ve had this type of discussion about three hundred times so I guess I tend to get short with people.

And yes, in response to your questions about EVo inshakes. It will not affect protein absorption rate.[/quote]

Its all good. I understand arguing reptatively with people. I get tired of saying that protein isn’t gonna make my kidneys fail…

The EVOO thing is interesting b/c if you claim to put it in your PWO shake…people around here will eat you alive for “slowing down your absorbtion with evoo”.

I never really disagreed with you because everything you said makes sense and kind of reflects what I’ve always thought made sense…however, people around here and preached otherwise so sometimes I dunno whats right in regards to how the body works. I am pulling out that nutrition text book today. I gotta pass the class this summer anyway.

I meant if one claimed to put it in evoo in their PWO shake, thats the reaction they would get…I know you weren’t saying you did to avoid any confusion.

Very interesting stuff. I like kicking back an listening to those who know more than I do. I was curious about the liquid fat/protein absorption, as well.

[quote]GetSwole wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
GetSwole wrote:

Its all good. I understand arguing reptatively with people. I get tired of saying that protein isn’t gonna make my kidneys fail…

The EVOO thing is interesting b/c if you claim to put it in your PWO shake…people around here will eat you alive for “slowing down your absorbtion with evoo”.

I never really disagreed with you because everything you said makes sense and kind of reflects what I’ve always thought made sense…however, people around here and preached otherwise so sometimes I dunno whats right in regards to how the body works. I am pulling out that nutrition text book today. I gotta pass the class this summer anyway.[/quote]

A lot of people around here don’t really know what they are talking about (not talking about you). That’s normal though - because it’s one newbie recommending “bro-logic” to another newbie and then pretty soon everyone is recommending the same thing.

I was a newbie once too and I believed this stuff - it wasn’t until I got blasted on another board did I do some reading and learing for myself. So I know where everyone is coming from. I just wish they didn’t always fight me on this (dont mean you).

Don’t even get me started on the whole, “You need simple sugars pwo so you can fill muscle glycogen quicker” thing. Because, that’s bullshit too!

Fat (of any form) PWO really isnt a big deal unless you are dieting.

Well, to begin with, most of the Joe’s around here don’t even deplete glycogen stores enough while the workout to need or warrant the sugar.

I don’t even believe in PWO sugar drinks anymore.

I’ve done way to much keto dieting and even done nothing BCAAs PWO.

So yeh, we’re on the same page there…and I’m interested in your reasoning now that we’ve talked about it.

I will say, that while I haven’t tried it, I find the science behind high molecular weight carbs PWO very very interesting and worth looking into.

This is fascinating and informative…

Question: will fiber slow absorbtion of protein when consumed together?

I have been under the conception that adding say fat and or fiber to your protein shake it will slow the absorbtion of the protein…

what say you?

[quote]inthego wrote:
This is fascinating and informative…

Question: will fiber slow absorbtion of protein when consumed together?

I have been under the conception that adding say fat and or fiber to your protein shake it will slow the absorbtion of the protein…

what say you?[/quote]

Fiber will. It gels in the small intestine so it does slow nutrient absorption (while at the same time enhancing it).

How much? I dont know. It won’t turn a whey shake into something like a casein shake though.