The Tea Party movement will not last, no. At least, not in any influential form.
The reason is, they have defined themselves solely as a negation of Obama and the Democratic party. Once they come to power, the fact that they have no cohesive message or platform, or really any positive ideas will become a real problem. They can say “no,” but they lack the ability to solve problems associated with governing.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
The Tea Party movement will not last, no. At least, not in any influential form.
The reason is, they have defined themselves solely as a negation of Obama and the Democratic party. Once they come to power, the fact that they have no cohesive message or platform, or really any positive ideas will become a real problem. They can say “no,” but they lack the ability to solve problems associated with governing.[/quote]
It will last until Obama has run his term and is no longer in the White House.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
<<< Sure, but you know what? It’s completely asinine to point to some trajectory conceived of by people in 1776. I believe in the Constitution and all it stands for, but the way this govt and this country works should be much more organic. >>>[/quote]
You really don’t see the glaring contradiction in this do you?
The Tea Party’s death knoll will be the day one of them gets elected and they have to form policy on more than being anti-Obama. People will see that their hot new thing is really just the same old crap, and the Tea Partier on the floor is just another Republican. Just another partisan voting politician, long on promises and short on performance.
Once the Tea Party members fail to effect any change at all and just get swallowed by the political fold, the GOP will have to water the movement down and make it “main stream” in order to mitigate having the Tea Party lunatic fringe being associated as members of the GOP.
As it stands, the Tea Party reminds me of student protests in High School, where the only people skipping class are the 6 student council members with principle, and the 40 stoners who are seizing the chance to skip class and smoke on the corner.
Some of my beliefs on taxes, such as stimulating jobs by drastically lowering or repealing payroll taxes, overlap with tea party members and I’m sure on closer inspection there is much more, but I would never in a million years even begin to associate myself to a group lacking dignity. Being passionate about an issue to the point of wanton abandon is no excuse. Had Rosa Parks spit in that bus driver’s face, we’d be remembering her much differently today.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
<<< Sure, but you know what? It’s completely asinine to point to some trajectory conceived of by people in 1776. I believe in the Constitution and all it stands for, but the way this govt and this country works should be much more organic. >>>[/quote]
You really don’t see the glaring contradiction in this do you?[/quote]
Let me clarify. My point is that the Founding Fathers and the vision they had should serve as an inspiration. But we should not continually evaluate the political issues of the present based on what Thomas Jefferson or James Monroe would have wanted us to do. Shit, they’d probably be the first to say this were they alive.
Our society and the size and scope of our country is vastly different now compared to the 1770’s and 1780’s. The Founding Fathers could never have conceived of things like the Internet, minorities in elected office (especially the Presidency), women as the CEO’s of international corporations, instantaneous media exposure, the Youtube generation, the ability to travel from coast to coast in a single day, the ability to communicate in real time with people halfway around the globe, etc, etc.
And yet we look to these people as some sort of final arbiter regarding a whole slew of political issues. How govt should work isn’t a universal, unchanging thing. The ideas that they had regarding the actual function of govt from day to day have no bearing on today’s society. Their vision for what this country stands for is sacred, but it’s also entirely different from how the govt should work.
In its most basic form, America stands for freedom and prosperity. We don’t stand for a specific, unwavering type of govt that should never stray from the functionality that the Founding Fathers envisioned, but rather a democratic govt that is designed to bend and change shape in order to protect those freedoms and ensure prosperity. What the shape and nature of that democratic govt is has to be able to change as we change.
America is not the govt, it’s the people. As the people change, the govt should be designed to change just as fast as society does. But this does not mean that the principles upon which this country was founded should change. There IS a separation between a vision and the maintenance of that vision. The vision should never change, but the way to realize that vision must always be able to. What achieved that vision in 1787 cannot remain the exact same today.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
<<< Their vision for what this country stands for is sacred, but it’s also entirely different from how the govt should work. >>>[/quote]
Here we have another intelligent well meaning guy who is so wrong one stammers for a place to start.
America IS the principles exemplified in that vision. The preponderance of the people once embodied those principles. They no longer do and here we are.
I can bury you in quotes from founders of all varieties warning in unmistakable terms of the horrific consequences of exactly what you’re saying and what were doing.
Technology holds no necessary transformational sway over any of the core principles of our founding save the waging of war and population is entirely irrelevant. Truth does not ebb and flow and for people who do genuinely believe that ALL men are CREATED equal demography is irrelevant too.
People need to just man up and say they don’t like the way this nation was founded and this sick murderous whorehouse we’ve degenerated into represents progress in their view.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:People need to just man up and say they don’t like the way this nation was founded and this sick murderous whorehouse we’ve degenerated into represents progress in their view.
[/quote]
There’s the problem right there.
“[…]this sick murderous whorehouse we’ve degenerated into[…]”
Wrong. We’ve made significant progress. Conservatives are living in a fantasy world when they imagine that everything was perfect (at any time), and we’ve regressed.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:People need to just man up and say they don’t like the way this nation was founded and this sick murderous whorehouse we’ve degenerated into represents progress in their view.
[/quote]
There’s the problem right there.
“[…]this sick murderous whorehouse we’ve degenerated into[…]”
Wrong. We’ve made significant progress. Conservatives are living in a fantasy world when they imagine that everything was perfect (at any time), and we’ve regressed.
[/quote]
I have never and would never suggest that any state of affairs involving human beings even approaches perfection. Our founding and founders had it’s share of inconsistency, special interest and yes even hypocrisy. I don’t require perfection of anybody. The foundation they laid and the path they set us on was the highest in human history even if unevenly practiced by those who gave it to us. It did however depend for it’s success upon the private morality and especially family morality of the people it was to loosely govern. Almost to a man they told us that.
All mythology. The Revolution was largely fought so that colonial elites could exploit the people without interference from the British. Maybe they sort of believed their rhetoric on some level, but this was purely secondary. See the harsh treatment that Thomas Paine received, who actually did support a very democratic and free society.
OK
[quote] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI…
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[qutoe] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI… [/quote]
I’m here for the duration.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI… [/quote]
I’m here for the duration.[/quote]
I hope so. A few more voices like yours and Mufasa’s (sp?) and this place could be something more than just old-man nutcases spewing hateful rhetoric.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI… [/quote]
Where have you been? I was beginning to worry.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI… [/quote]
I’m here for the duration.[/quote]
I hope so. A few more voices like yours and Mufasa’s (sp?) and this place could be something more than just old-man nutcases spewing hateful rhetoric.
[/quote]
Get the fuck off my dick.
No, I’m just kidding. Jesus Christ, I’m fucking losing it. Seriously though, thanks.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote] DBCooper wrote:
Lots of good stuff. [/quote]
Thanks for posting. These are my thoughts almost exactly.
I hope you last a bit… but given the nutcases on PWI… [/quote]
Where have you been? I was beginning to worry.[/quote]
After my workouts I’ve been getting my fill of right-wing nonsense from other sources.
I don’t see the Tea Party lasting. The Republican establishment (Dick Army and Co.) basically subverted the movement from the principled, intellectually constant stewards of that movement (as it existed when Ron Paul and the like were its figure-heads), and turned it into an angry anti-government mob (would have been nice if they’d done it eight years earlier, but the fact that they didn’t speaks volumes about what the “movement” is really about.
We have examples of smart, well-read conservatives/libertarians on this board trying to defend a movement they know has been hijacked by a vocal minority of racist, fear-inspired, ignoramuses. And I don’t think you guys are getting your movement back. By November I predict the movement will be solidly behind Republican candidates at every level: I don’t see the “movement” using it’s power and influence to finance many independents into office, but I’d love to be surprised.
If the Dems maintain control, the Tea Party will stick around. If the Republicans take control, it will simply be reabsorbed into the Republican mainstream.
That’s my prediction, but I hope I’m wrong.