T Nation

TCs army article

So you amis love armys. Wonder that TC did not mention how he got an erection for two days seeing all this guys in uniforms. Wonder why some phrases like “proud of his country” didnt pop up more often.

Anyway, an aspect that this article misses, is that the main function of this kind of training is: Break peoples brain in order to destroy theyre human resistance to killing. Whenever the american governement demands the illegal killing of somebody (quite often lately) these highly trained murderers will obey without thinking. While “normal” armys will teach soldiers not to execute commands against the geneva convention (like executing armless women and kids) troups trained according to that scheme (Like the soviets did, the nazis did) will happily kill whenever required.

Americas view on world politics requires people with an attitude of “we have a right to defend - no matter how” - just wanted to let you know the opinion of the rest of the world. USA is the big world emperor now, not accepting any international rule or code. Nothing new in history - there was always a big group dominating for a while and they never gave shit about others or rules. If the american leaders had any political instincts, they would start cooperating again with the rest of the world, america is still to weak and to small to maintain that kind of preassure against a more and more angry world.

Whatever you say Adal. It’s too bad the rest of the world has zero power to stop the powerful american war machine as we conquer the world! What are you going to do now? Post more inane threads on a weight lifting forum? YOU CANT STOP THE AMERICAN JUGGERNAUT! FEAR US!

SeanW…lmfao

You need some cheese to go with that whine, adal.

mmmm…right SeanW, GI Joe wannabe eh!!!

Well adal, first things first. TC’s article was about the Navy, not the Army. So that tells us how your attention to detail is. Secondly, that type of training is not meant to make mindless “murderers”, but to steel the minds of SEAL’s against outside elements. It is meant to show the trainees how much torture they can truly stand and still accomplish the mission. You would be surprised how much the human body can deal with when you are mentally fit. The training is used to weed out those who lack the mental fortitude to withstand the physical demands of the job.

You say, “Whenever the american governement demands the illegal killing of somebody (quite often lately) these highly trained murderers will obey without thinking.While “normal” armys will teach soldiers not to execute commands against the geneva convention”

Now, I’m a bit confused where you are coming from with this. As a Marine myself I am well versed with the Geneva Convention, and I am quite sure that you don’t know WTF you are talking about. Have you picked up a weapon and gone to war for you country? Do you have any idea what war consists of? I’m not going to say that innocent people don’t die, but I have never been ordered to kill women and children. If your drudging up Vietnam era propaganda then you’re wasting your time, because that was a different time and place.
Where are these “normal” army’s that you write of? The British? The French? The German’s? What high horse are you sitting on that you can judge us from. Why don’t you take a look at the forces that we are fighting these day’s. The Iraqi’s; an army that killed and oppressed their own people under the rule of an insane man. Where was their obedience of the Geneva convention when they were parading the bodies of American troops through the streets? The Al-Qaida? Yeah, flying planes into buildings and killing thousands of non-combatants isn’t at all in violation of international law. Maybe you should think about the tactics our enemies use before bitchin at us. Why don?t you go write Osama a letter?
You honestly make me sick. Take a look around you at all the countries that oppress and kill their own people. How can you point your finger at America as an evil in this world? At least we have the balls to try and make a difference. While the rest of the world sits around pointing and saying how much we?re screwin it up. Take a look at what Theodore Roosevelt had to say.

“It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.”

So take your bullshit elsewhere. The blood of great men and women has bought this great place that I call home, and I will defend with my own life when the time comes. You know nothing of anything real, just propaganda shoved down your throat by the media. Sure, we may have our problems, out shortcomings, but show me one country that has the effect or influence (good and bad) that America has.
That is all.

Having been trained by the great war machine myself I can tell you that you know not what you speak of, dickhead.

The military does not train blind compliance to orders. They teach you about lawful and unlawful orders, the Geneva convention, and many other things. What they also teach is tactics, skills, and use of technology and that’s what makes the US the most deadly fighting force on the planet.

Here’s some facts you might not know. The average ex-military person from any demographic group you can choose has about 50% less odds of commiting any crimes than any non-military trained person from the same group. Trained killers? Anti-social? Yeah, fucking right.

As far as yor assertion that there is some natural human resistance to killing you’re also speaking from your rectal orifice. Humans are naturally violent. Read some history. Read a lot of history, and not that way left, soy and veggie chomper written stuff but factually based history. Hey, look at Haiti today. Who trained the Haitians to take up arms and kill? The US Navy SEALs? The USMC? The Boy Scouts? Walt Disney?

Nope. They are an untrained mob that murder when they get riled up. If they don’t have guns they are fond of using cane knives instead. Natural resistance to killing. What a fucking moronic statement that is.

I don’t doubt the current military superiority of the US, but its a historic fact, that hated but military superior cultures go down sooner rather than later. In the current world situation we can’t afford the USA going down. Yes, I come from Europe, and I hate to see, that within about 5 years the image of the USA went from “place to be” over “this monkey as president can’t be real” to “when will nightmare stop”. The world needs a country as a moral leader, the USA is loosing this position rapidly. The USA were the country to base international cooperation on a set of rule, only to brake them lately, whenever they like.
What gives the right to attack other countries without UN approval? With the same argument you can justify terror. Terror provokes Terror …

The main thread for the USA lifstyle (and the part the world wants to adopt like freedom of speach, wealtch …) is pollution much more than terror and even if it were terror, the actions are only good to promote terror. Why you copy the unsuccessful actions of Israel (oppression and more opression) instead of more intelligent models?

Is it, because the guys leading your country are payed by military and polluting industries?

I have a big interst in the USA becoming what they were again - thats the moral leader of the world - not just another country thinking strength justifies terror and being ruled by criminals, weapons industrie and rednecks who think they do something productive for a community when playing war in the national guard or admiring strong boys in uniforms.

You know guys, he might be right. We should stop training men this way and teach them to fly planes in to buildings full of innocent civilians or to tape bombs to ourselvefs and explode then next to school buses.

Fucking idiot.

Wow, that’s a lot of responsibility, speaking for the rest of the world, but I’m sure you’re man enough for the job.

I liked the article because as a weight lifter, my commitment to lifting takes a certain mental and physical toughness. The parallel to the training of an elite military organization, while nowhere near as demanding, was an interesting comparison to think about.

Of course then some internet hack has to spew his wack job political views in response and completely miss the intent of the article.

Want to read a speech with a different point of view? I challenge you to read and respond with an intelligent post.

http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.19912/news_detail.asp

Or feel free to skip it and spend the rest of the afternoon smoking cigarettes in your coffee shop, speaking loudly against the WTO, the evil of Starbucks, the benefits of socialized medicine and whatever other agenda your favorite professor is pushing at the university. I don’t mean this as a personal attack, but you’re a cliche.

@Anderson:

Good article …

You critizized my "just wanted to let you know the opinion of the rest of the world. ". Thats exactly what the article says: “Intervening militarily for that kind of national interest, liberal internationalism finds unholy and unsupportable. It sees that kind of national interest as merely self-interest writ large, in effect, a form of grand national selfishness. Hence Kuwait, no; Kosovo, yes.”

The problem for supporting americans position, even if supporting it in an educated way like that article does and not utterly primitive like SteelyEyes, is that your justification for illegal action is not reversible.

If america has the right to execute violence to protect its own lifestyle, without approval from the international authorities, this can be interpreted as the same right for everybody.

So if america is allowed to attack for fighting isolationism, why are arabian terrorists not allowed to attack to defend theire view of the world.

So the only remaining authority is that of the better army. And history shows, that large numbers of frustrated enemies overcome superior, well organized fighting machines.

For the securtiy of the world and the securtiy of america, I think the USA would be better of getting rid of the current leader and wait for 2-3 more monts to get approval from the international community. I am not against attacking a person like saddam (just don’t forget, that the USA installed that monster, but why not get a decision on common ground?

The problem is, that the country with the most educated people in the world has given power to a bunch of no-brainers, the weapons industry and the polluting industry.

The rest of the world, whether it be France, Lithuania, or Indonesia all act in their own national interest too. The fact they don’t like what we do to promote and protect ours shouldn’t be a big surprise. We’re big and we tend to exert a lot of influence. We aren’t France and so we don’t act in France’s best interest or to win any popularity contests there or anywhere else. Bummer.

For a while we were plenty popular in Europe because we were the backbone of NATO and kept the Red Bear out of their backyard. Well, that threat is gone now so Europe can afford to focus on things they don’t like about us now. Odd how they claim to detest the very military might that allowed them the leisure to have that attitude.

Funny thing though, of the Europeans I’ve met that have been here just about every one of them liked it and they like Americans.

The rest of the world does not speak with one voice. When I was in Bavaria last year more than a few locals mentioned that they didn’t have a clue how Schroeder got elected since they didn’t know any Bavarians that had voted for the guy. This was prior to the Iraq war (I flew out the day the first attack took place) and most of the more mature people I met were either ambivilent or for our efforts in Iraq. Some of the teenagers (and we know how well thought out their opinions are) were more against it. No big surprise there either.

The military actions in Kosovo and Bosnia meet the definition of “illegal” if what was done in Irag was. The UN sat on it’s thumb and allowed the ethnic “cleansing” to take place in Europe’s back yard. It took NATO, again with the leadership of the US, to step in and do something.

Lots of people toss around the idea of International Law but it’s not so cut and dried. There is no court or legal system that is above and beyond that of each soveriegn nation. Sure there are places that claim to have that authority but they rely on voluntary compliance. Try running a legal system in a country that way. You can only try a criminal if he surrenders himself to the court. International Law didn’t have the reach to go get Milosevic until Yogoslavia had a change in government and turned him over.

It’s easy for any country to ignore international law. Many do, not just the US. We missed getting UN support for our attack on Iraq by a couple of votes. We did it anyway so we’re ogres and war mongers. The fact Iraq was ignoring UN resolutions and thumbing it’s nose at the rest of the world, including thousands of attacks on US aircraft flying under the “protection” of a UN approved treaty, well that’s not so bad.

France loses control of it’s military action in Liberia and who do they call? The war mongers and international criminals in the US.

Haiti has problems with armed mobs and who do they ask for? France, Germany, Spain, no…they want the US.

We must be hated world wide. Really.

Oh, and just a tip. When you start accusing honorable and brave men of despicable acts like murder you can pretty well expect a visceral response instead of a cerebral debate.

Keep posting adal, I’m starting to like you more and more. That first post was kind of out there, but every post after that has gotten better and better.

Your points are valid and therefore somewhat painful for many of the jingoists here, so expect more flames than rational discussion.

abal, all I can suggest is that you reread the speech, all your points are addressed in it.

You want the benefit of American security, but as a European, you object to the fact that you do not control it through the international community.

In typical European style, you desire a social net of security provided by the money of someone else.

In the same way, you object to TC’s article (despite that it had everything to do with mental toughness and almost nothing to do with foregin policy), because you viewed it as an article written in support of the American military, a military that doesn’t conform to your desire for it to be subserviant to “world” (read European) interests.

You want America to be a policeman, but you want it to only police based on when you decide it should.

Sorry, but doesn’t work.

Reread the speech if you don’t understand why.

As for TC’s article, the only other time you have posted was to attack an article Shugart wrote. Your time is wasted projecting your view of the world on the editorial pieces of a weight lifting site. Worse, I am wasting my time explaining it to you.

I agree with steelyeyes. that is all

The Seals are by no means the only elite military unit in the world. The British have some, and even Denmark (where I’m from). ALL of them go through an extremely vigourous training and (especially) initiation regimen. What the purpose of it “really” is I can’t really claim to know for sure, but it certainly isn’t exclusive to the USA.
Whether or not the seals really are “tougher than the rest” is probably more of a political battle than anything else.

/Jacob

Wow…well first off the UN really is pretty worthless at this point. With no army of its own all it can do is pass resolutions and hope people follow them and more importantly they have consistently ignored ethnic cleansing and oppression. Think about kosovo, albania, and scariest of all, rwanda. The hutus there slaughtered 800,000 tutsis in just 100 days with machetes. That’s faster than the nazi war machine and its concentration camps with considerably more primitive weapons. And the UN just sits around and does nothing…in fact the US did nothing as well and I think that’s a mistake. SteelyEyes is right…they loved us when we were the only thing keeping the USSR from taking over Europe, or when we came in to work with the British to push back the Germans. When was the last time any country besides the US or Britain did anything to help someone else. I can’t remember the French ever doing anything but looking out for their own self interests. This includes illegal weapons trafficking to countries under UN sanctions.

We send billions in aid to africa for AIDS treatment, bear the Entire burden of the costs of the prescription drug industry b/c european countries have set price controls and the companies have to come here to recover the billion dollars or so it takes to bring a drug to market, plus we’re about 1/3 of the world economy. Frankly the world economy cannot survive without us. How many currencies are pegged to the dollar and how many countries rely on us to buy their imports? I can’t say I agree with Bush’s economic policies b/c I think both parties are spending freaks at this point and the republicans have abandoned their traditional small govt platform. Nonetheless, it’s better than the democratic platforms so it’s another lesser of two evils this year. And frankly I think you’re exaggerating a lot about the rest of the world being mad at us. I have friends from europe and asia and they don’t have any of the hostility you describe.

Btw, if I were you I’d worry more about China as it’s going to become the next superpower and I promise you they don’t give a damn about international approval, human rights, or anything you seem to value.

adal,

Anderson beat me to it! The ONLY time you have posted (at least, under this screen name) was almost exactly ONE YEAR AGO in a thread you started in order to criticize “Chrises” article. Why, man? Why are you here? You seem to have no real interest in participating in a forum about exercise and health. You just lurk until you make an annual visceral jab at someone’s freedom of speech, never acknowledging that it is the American respect for freedom of speech that allows you to even exist on this moderated forum. Why? What do you gain? What do you accomplish? You can’t be enjoying this; there’s no point to it. Is it simply because you are a self-appointed arbiter of moral outrage? (I guess everybody’s gotta have a hobby.)

I don’t hate you. I don’t argue with your right to express your opinion.

But…why?

“The world needs a country as a moral leader, the USA is loosing this position rapidly.”

Frankly, it seems to me that a moral leader would do what is “right” rather than what is popular. I’m not a George Bush fan, but he certainly has handled Iraq properly.

You know, Colin Powell, said more than a decade ago,“Everyone complains that America is the world’s policeman, but who do they call when they need a cop?”

As someone that has NEVER been in the military, you have no idea what the training is like. So until you step on the yellow footprints, your opinion of the psycological state of an American fighting man will be an ignorant one.