T Nation

Tapering Off of Test E W/Prop


#1

Hey fellas, I’m considering doing a cycle of Test E and EQ. My question is this:
Rather than taper off for four weeks before I start my PCT, would it be contraindicated to add a shot of Test Prop EOD until about the second to last week of the cycle? That way my test levels won’t be so low waiting to start the PCT, and I’ll only have to wait about two weeks for the Prop to mostly clear my system before I begin. If you want to know dosages,I can type it all out, but I’m more interested in hearing opinions on the theory rather than critiques on the cycle itself.

If that’s all fouled up, I’d like to know why, and I’ll gladly stick to the standard four week taper. Thanks in advance.


#2

EQ should be out of activity by three weeks,Test E by about 2.You can finish off the last 3 weeks or so of the washing out period, with either Prop or a mix a of Prop and a fast acting oral like anavar or winstrol. Only takes about 3-4 days for Prop to get out of your system and then you can start PCT.
Be aware Prop can sting like a bitch, for a couple of days, very effective drug though.


#3

How can you say his Test E will be at a low enough level to start PCT after 2 weeks? The half life of the Enanthate ester is 2 weeks, so adding his last shot of around 500mg PLUS the build up of all the previous shots, he will still have supraphysiological levels of testosterone way beyond 2 weeks after his last shot.

IMO there are so many failed PCT’s these days because of the bro-science of PCT 2 weeks after your last test shot. I also in the past have made this mistake and not recovered. 2 weeks after propionate, yes start your PCT. After Enanthate? I would wait at least 4 to 6 weeks and use prop in this time till it clears.

SB


#4

Hey Singh, Well it sems like everyones been doing Pct wrong then?(maybe we have I am open minded) It may be broscience but it still seems to work reasonably well for the majority of users that cycle. Sorry to hear it didn’t work out well for you.

Is your protocol backed by a published peer reviewed assessment by those with postgrad qualifications in the field, and also personal use of anabolics to see if they work according to the studies result/ theory? I’m not really meaning to have a go at you, but you might see my point. Technically your opinion is just as much broscience(probably better than mine admittedly, I have no sci or med qualification) than anyone else that posts a response, unless it meets the criteria.

So much of what users do is based on personal experience, others experience, myth, and hopefully some science. Maybe it should be better but in practical terms, this is what we seems to have at the moment, and its more comprehensive than what those in the past had.

For Trt from an M.D. they most commonly seem to inject every two weeks, and keep a constant level of test similar to a normal level. However in bodybuilding you will commonly hear the need to inject long acting test twice a week to maintain steady levels(personally find no difference at 1/week test inj). No one in bodybuilding injects test once every two weeks, despite the fact that it should still be maintaining a constant level.

Even if you start PCT a little earlier than another person, a sane amount of clomid 25mg, or nolvadex10-20mg is not going to cause any problems with someone trying to regain their testosterone levels back into the normal range. Some people even recommend taking them on cycle, not just for keeping E levels in check but in the hope it stimulates some activity in the testicles. Some say this is bullshit, personally I seem to recover my normal levels back faster if I take a small amount of SERM whilst on cycle. At the very least there is going to be some stimulus for the testes to start up production when exogenous test levels reduce enough.


#5

Although I do have a post grad qualification, one does not need it to understand basic chemistry of half lives and drug clearance times.
You are correct in assuming there will be no extra problems if someone starts clomid earlier, however it is wasted if you still have suppressive levels of hormones floating around. Most people start their PCT too early and finish when the levels gear is just reaching zero, so your SERM is wasted and now you are left with no test and no SERM stimulation either.

If you had been around this site a couple years ago, you’ll know my opinion is based on Prisoners protocol of stasis/taper. Search it. He has the studies you are looking for.

SB


#6

Checked it out. Definitely food for thought. Most seemed to like it, a few had some reservations about the taper. Maybe I will try it one day, see if it works for me.
One thing comes through re steroids in general as well as PCT how variable responses can be from person to person.


#7

I think it makes sense from all aspects, going from very high levels of androgens to zero is setting yourself up for disaster. But if it works for some people then good for them I guess.

SB


#8

The only way to be sure if your body is ready for recovery is bloodwork done and see where your test levels are at. But If you are on a high amount of Eq it will take about 5 half lives for your blood levels to be low enough to start recovery. 5 x 14 = 70 day after last pin of Eq. You can read Dr. Michael Scally’s hpta restart, it addresses this topic in depth.

When running Eq or deca for that matter, a good option is to run test e/c for 4 weeks past the Eq then running test prop for 3 weeks. Take 2.5-3 weeks off then start pct. prop half life is 4 days 4x5=20days.

And yes, some guys have recovered with starting pct 3weeks after last Eq pin. And some have recovered without running pct at all. But that does not mean it is the best way to go.


#9

I must admit the tapering at the end of a cycle approach sounds like common sense to me after reading about it. Though that is also essentially what happens over when you stop at maximum dose over the next 3-4 weeks(probably not the 2 weeks for test E as I had said earlier).
I decided to check Anabolics 10th Ed. Not saying its the be all and end all of everthing on steroids but here’s what it states…

“When concluding a cycle,some steroid users also follow a practice of first reducing their dosages(tapering). This tapering may proceed for a 3-4 week period, and will involve stepping down of the dose each week until the point of drug discontinuance. It is unknown, however, if such tapering offers any tangible value.This practice has never been evaluated in a clinical setting, and is not widely recommended with steroid medications as it is with some other drugs such as thyroid medication or antidepressants. Virtually every high -dose AAS administration study can also be found to end at maximum dosage, with no time alotted to tapering. One flaw in the logic of using a tapering program, is that they are ostensibly designed to help hormone recovery. Recovery is not possible, however, while supraphysiological levels of androgens are present, and such levels are usually found during all weeks of a normal(non medical) steroid taper. Individuals remain cautioned that dosage tapering is not a proven way to reduce post cycle muscle catabolism.” p 67 Anabolics 10th Ed.

On PCT Anabolics states…

A half life of 8 days for tst e/c. 500mg of test e/c it should take approximately 4 half lives(32 days) for testosterone to drop to below normal range. In this case PCT would be initiated 2 weeks after the last testosterone injection. p87 Anabolics.

Maybe this is an oversight or maybe I just don’t understand the theory properly, but it sounds like the author is contradicting himself, by stating that it takes approximately 32 days before exogenous test is out of your system or at least low enough for your HPTA to realize that it needs to start producing its own test again. Then saying instead of waiting 4 weeks for PCT, start it at 2 weeks.
I guess it takes time, at least 1 week for a SERM to build up so you have a noticeable effect? If this is the reason he doesn’t state it.