Taper vs Pct

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
I realise you don’t like me, and this is personal for you, but bashing the taper will get you nowhere.

It is actually firmly grounded in science. If you recall I backed up all my claims with peer reviewed work more than a year ago.

So frankly just leave it alone now. Demeaning me and trying to demean it as not being based on science is a total fallacy. -and that is why I get piss sometime, because I have had these debates and aguments a hundred times, spend many hours on the computer over this, yet people still try every couple of months or so to attack it, using the very same arguments already used and defeated.

Just wish people would accept things and let them be.[/quote]

Show me where I knocked the taper. You have no real proof behind you, yet you want everyone to accept your idea as gospel.

Even if it is grounded in science - you are acting exactly like Hooker. Back it up with more than anecdotal evidence, and I will change my tune. You can’t and you know it, yet you go on like you have discovered a new cure for cancer. That is what I don’t like. Your attitude in defending the taper is what I have been posting about. You call anyone that doubts you ignorant. I have a problem with that.

If you want to engage in discussion, that is one thing. But to get on here and act as if everyone is an idiot that doesn’t agree with you…well…

Act like you have a new idea - that’s fine. But don’t mistake your idea for being a new truth. It is an idea. Some might say it is a good idea. But it is only an idea.

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
…and have also gotten it to work while using low dose masteron…

Please elaborate on this aspect of your taper.

I have seen P#22 mention this before in some detail. I suspect it was in the original taper thread (BTW anyone know if the taper protocol has been added to the newbie theread?).

If you can’t find it, then my suggestion would be to taper it in the same ratios as you ased in the body of the cycle.

So if you were doing 500mg/wk test, and 200mg/wk mast, then the ratios are 5:2.

so when running 100mg/wk test as party of the 6 week ‘stabilisation’ phase, you would be running 40mg/wk masteron ((100 / 5)x2)

80test:32mast
60test:24mast
40test:16mast

Thats just my take on it though.[/quote]

I worked it with a 50:50 ratio.

instead of 100mg test I used 50mg masteron, and 50mg test.

I then kept the ratio as I tapered.

worked fine and kept libio happening.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
I realise you don’t like me, and this is personal for you, but bashing the taper will get you nowhere.

It is actually firmly grounded in science. If you recall I backed up all my claims with peer reviewed work more than a year ago.

So frankly just leave it alone now. Demeaning me and trying to demean it as not being based on science is a total fallacy. -and that is why I get piss sometime, because I have had these debates and aguments a hundred times, spend many hours on the computer over this, yet people still try every couple of months or so to attack it, using the very same arguments already used and defeated.

Just wish people would accept things and let them be.

Show me where I knocked the taper. You have no real proof behind you, yet you want everyone to accept your idea as gospel.

Even if it is grounded in science - you are acting exactly like Hooker. Back it up with more than anecdotal evidence, and I will change my tune. You can’t and you know it, yet you go on like you have discovered a new cure for cancer. That is what I don’t like. Your attitude in defending the taper is what I have been posting about. You call anyone that doubts you ignorant. I have a problem with that.

If you want to engage in discussion, that is one thing. But to get on here and act as if everyone is an idiot that doesn’t agree with you…well…

Act like you have a new idea - that’s fine. But don’t mistake your idea for being a new truth. It is an idea. Some might say it is a good idea. But it is only an idea.

[/quote]

how can I be acting like Anthony Roberts? It’s not like I am defending a book I wrote. My motivation for defending the protocol is to ensure that as many people as possible are not brainwashed into trying some of the stupid protocols that ignorant people are regurgitation over and over again, that just plainly do not work.

I laid down the scientific findings that backed what I was saying. This is now the third time I have stated this, yet you fail to acknowledge this. Even though you yourself read it.

And as for calling people ignorant, yes, if they don’t take the time to do the research and read my explainations and science behind the the protocol, before critisizing, then yes, by all means they are ignorant. Alot of people on here just shoot critizism from the hip. There are actually members on here trying to learn, and figure out what is the best way to go about doing things. For them I say listen to me and you won’t go wrong. So far I have been here a fairly decent length of time, and helped more people on here then you will ever in your life time and all have been gratefull for my help. I asked for nothing in return.

BTW:
An Idea is any conception existing in the mind as a result of mental understanding, awareness, or activity.

That’s what the test taper was.
I have gone beyond that, as I have laid out the research, developed and refined a protocol that is governed by the research to follow, and tested it myself, as have others test it.

Granted there is no way of putting it through the rigors of a University study, but that is the reality of using schedual performance enhancing drugs. No study would be ethically feasable to produce.

Nobody so far who has used my protocol yet has disagreed with anything I said or predicted would happen, Not a single person. That counts for a lot. It has been out for longer than a year now. You think if I wasn’t right about what I had said, that someone would have said something.

heck someone even already produced bloodwork to prove things a couple of months back. Guess you missed that too.

And yeah you ridicule it, call it a cure for cancer. I wouldn’t equate it to that, but it is a big deal to those of us comming off gear, who in the past dreaded doing so, and had no clue as to a firm protocol how to do so.

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
meepmister wrote:
Tapering doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I quote below from “Anabolics 2006” by Dr. William Llewellyn:

“…in order for the production of testosterone to be fully restored, the body will really need to recognize an androgen deficit, not just a drop in steroid dosage. For example, since even one Dianabol table could provide the equivalent of a full day’s androgen supply for the average male, tapering from five, to four, to three, etc will accomplish relatively nothing. In the three or four weeks the athlete will spend doing this, his body is still reading ‘androgen overload’, and will not attempt to restore the output of testosterone.”

He goes on to conclude that tapering is useless. Instead, pay close attention to ancillary drug use (HCG, Nolvadex) during PCT.

Hope this helps.

I suggest you do a search for my threads such as the Prisoner#22 test tapering thread, where in fact I disputed all this, and in fact many members here have tried my protocol with great success since, and would never go back to using just a serm or hcg.

Do this before you continue to spread your lies. Or sorry, your ignorance.[/quote]

Hmmm…since he quoted Dr. L. then you, in effect, are calling Dr. L a liar/ignoramus.

Wow.

Rainjack starting something with P-22!

And here comes Headhunter in a tag team with Rainjack!

Gents, I enjoy pretty much most forum responses each of you have made on so many topics on this site, but I find some of the attacking-like comments beneath you guys.

P-22 may have thrown out the dissing of Bill, but his responses to each heated argument so far has been exactly what Rainjack wanted: for P-22 to act like he’s been there, done that. I think his responses on this thread have been very thoughful and somewhat professional.

I think its great to have a debate like this…but what I think it comes down to is this: what works for one guy may or may not work for the other guy.

So, we have in one corner here, those who have tried the taper and it working excellently for them. Tell me detractors: have you tried it? Scientific analysis, etc aside, HAVE YOU TRIED IT?

Until your answer is YES, then you don’t really know. You just don’t.

Also, on the other hand, there have been MANY who have piped up in the past exhorting the virtues of SERMS and AI’s for PCT. You CANNOT dismiss those experiences either.

Look, if it works for you…frickin’ fantastic. If it sucks balls, shit…try the other protocol next time.

This is so much like all the heated debates about one training program being better than another; bench press sucks…bench press is great; total body workouts are the king…bodypart splits are the king, etc, etc. You must try it to see if it works or not for YOU. So much of this physique and strength journey is experimental…embrace it, and embrace the differing ideas.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Hmmm…since he quoted Dr. L. then you, in effect, are calling Dr. L a liar/ignoramus.
[/quote]

first off
I believe we have discussed that he isn’t a doctor.

Secondly,

The quote is not exactly in context, since the taper I use makes sure to eliminate all other AAS prior to tapering off using testosterone, which the body cannot distinguish from it’s own.

The research I produce proved that the HPTA is capable of working even while subjects used exogenous doses of testosterone.

It is well known as well that normal men who are not doing testosterone, do not need their testosterone levels to fall to zero, before their hpta switches on to tell their testes to produce more testosterone, so why would this be the case when using low doses of exogenous testosterone?

If you follow my research you will find that it is not the case, and in fact you can wean off a steroid cycle using testosterone, and your body will gradually kick back in it’s own hpta as you continue to gradually lower the dose of testosterone, making for a seamless transisiton.

I only reserve the term ingnorant for those who do not fully read my work before they offer critisism, or to those who clearly display a lack of knowledge and understanding of the laws of humam physiology, and pharmacology.

Trib can be used throughout the cycle, or not at all.

During the taper or not at all. definitely won’t hurt. As with a SERM though, I am not sure if it will help more in the long run then if it wasn’t used at all. The body needs time to recover and return to normality. SERMS and the such can speed up the process, but in the end in order to be independant of these helpers, It is my experience that your body still needs the time.

Personally I tend not to use it, as I am trying to get the hpta to work as fully as possible without any helpers.

Following the taper once I am clean off everything, I would then consider cycling it much like I used to before I ever took any AAS.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
This is so much like all the heated debates about one training program being better than another; bench press sucks…bench press is great; total body workouts are the king…bodypart splits are the king, etc, etc. You must try it to see if it works or not for YOU. So much of this physique and strength journey is experimental…embrace it, and embrace the differing ideas.
[/quote]

You missed my issue with the Omniscient P-22. He is a dick, and viciously attacks those that disagree with him.

I could give a shit about his taper theory, and have said so many times. If it works for you knock yourself out. I know what works for me, and deviating from proven success just isn’t something I care to do at this point in my life.

But I have never slammed the taper.

I may disagree with the logic because if you are on exogenous test above the level at which you naturally produce test - you will be shut down.

No one can find anywhere on here where I call it bullshit.

I do call bullshit on the Omniscient One’s childish behavior in defense of his little theory, however. He slams Llewellyn, Ksman, and others that dares to utter the words, “I disagree”. He even admits to having Ksman apologize to him for making him mad.

Let me put that into some perspective: Ksman offers up some thoughts on the taper. It pisses P off. P posts an inflammatory retort basically telling Ksman to sit down and shut the fuck up. Ksman apologizes for even offering an opinion. P is proud of the fact that he received an apology from someone offering their opinion. P decides Llewellyn is a dipshit because he is not Cy Wilson.

That is my issue with P-22. It has nothing to do with the taper, and everything to do with his incredible level of unprofessional attitude. I have had wars with hooker over the exact same shit.

Prisoner, I am currently 11 since my last pin of test e at 500mg a week in 2 shots. I am feeling horrible., my depression is almost manic, and I can’t focus. Is it too late for me to use this method I have plenty of test e left and will dose tonight if you give the go;or am I too late.

Your 12 years to Late is what you are

1 Like

12 years too late lol

At this point a three week cycle of clomid would be a good course of action. And Or perhaps even a HCG protocol.
The Effects of the HCG should help within a week or so to feeling better and hopefully the clomid will enable your HPTA to begin to work better.

You also have to ask yourself if you are going to cycle again and if so are you willing to put up with these highs and lows because let’s face it the testosterone taper was developed to eliminate that issue, but using anabolic steroids for decent periods of cycle length you can pretty much kiss being normal without the aid of drugs again. This is just the reality of it. I can explain why from my own experience if anyone wants to know.

Bout to cycle off test cyp 500mg/wk I hope your right…sounds like a good use for the extra I have! I can use test C instead of test E correct?

Please do explain.

I cannot believe you still post here P22!

SB

The simple explaination is that every year your HPTA is older and therefore is proven to work less effectively. Combine that with a change in natural set-point of maximum skeletal muscle being caried and therefore also androgen receptors and you have two things already playing against you. For instance, I know people who never used anabolic steroids in their life and by 40 are needing testosterone replacement therapy to feel normal, this is common, so one would be able to surmise that it’s very much likely this will be the case for someone who has been a user. Bottom line, if you choose to use anabolic steroids for any length of time and multiple cycles so that you attain a measure of skeletal muscle that is above what you naturally could ever have attained it is highly probable your HPTA abilities will become subjectively, naturally unsatisfactory. That’s the bottom line.
Moral of the story is you have a choice to make and everything else you do as far as ancillary treatments is just reducing harm and side effects of the inevitable long term dependence on Testosterone replacement therapy.
So you might as well put yourself through the least amount of discomfort as you can.
If you’re having issues with recovery, you were in too long … why kill yourself … testosterone bridge/ taper into your next cycle and continue to lead a normal life. Nothing is worth compromising your happiness or your sanity.

2 Likes

Love the idea of your method and I was thinking the same and thats how I found this post and I just had to signup to ask:) I have a question, you wrote in here you Taper the Test E starting at 100mg for 6 weeks, do you mean you do 6 weeks of 100mg and then you do additional weeks dropping 80,60,40,20 and for nolva you do it during those last 4 weeks? I think I understood what you wrote and designed the following for my next cycle? Thanks!

Week 1: Test Cyp 400mg
Week 2-11: Test Cyp 400mg + Tren E 200mg (10 weeks)
Arimidex 0.5mg EOD
Week 12-13: Test Cyp 400mg
Arimidex 0.5mg EOD
Taper down PCT Protocol
Week 14-19: Test Cyp 100mg
Week 20: Test Cyp 80mg
Nolvadex 40mg/day für 7 tage (2 tabletten)
Week 21: Test Cyp 60mg
Nolvadex 30mg/day für 7 tage (1.5 tabletten)
Week 22: Test Cyp 40mg
Nolvadex 20mg/day für 7 tage (1 tablet)
Week 23: Test Cyp 20mg
10mg/day für 7 tage (0.5 tablet)
Week 24-25: Nothing

No point of taper. Because even low amount of exegenous testesterone prevents your balls from working

The point of nolva is making your balls working in a much quicker way. Also during using nolva I see people get more testesteron than their natural level

As far as I know avg male body produces 35-70mg per week testesterone

@monstermmorpg Any evidence to back your claims? I think not so please refrain from dismissing something you have no knowledge about.

SB

Your layout is correct, however I would always use Test Prop during the 100mg/wk and the taper down part.

SB