T Nation

Tamoxifen Citrate or Clomifene for PCT & T Maintenance?

hey, I know there are some topics regarding that subject, but I’ve found some conflicting information…there are studies claiming tamoxifen lowers testosterone in men so I do not know if those papers are correct. well, I’ve got tamoxifen here instead of clomid (I’ve already used clomid years ago) and I’d like to know if it does the job like clomifene did, increasing GnRH (LH/FSH - leading to intratesticular production). another question, does high levels of caffeine interfere with tamoxifen absorption?

I’m not secondary nor primary, my testis are doing just fine and so my pituitary. I do apologize for my english manners, I’m not american and I’m trying to get better lol

which one is better? clomifene or tamoxifen to recovery? and what tamoxifen dosage is safe? clomid is nasty, I did 50mg every other day and that stuff screwed me up. thank you and again: sorry if I offended any of you guys with my english.

No. Caffeine was once speculated to make Tamoxifen more effective through effects on pharmacokinetics.

I’d say it’s individual, the accepted opinion here is that Tamoxifen is less side effect prone. I can’t attest to that.

I’d take between 10-40 mg. 40 mg ed the first week then 20 from the second on. You could do 4 or 6 weeks. Depends a bit on your response and experience. The most common protocol is per weeks: 40/40/20/20

Your English is far from offensive, you even used punctuation marks. Some guys here do far worse and don’t even try to make their sentences remotely understandable.

Side effects are often in your head with these drugs but I can attest to very unpleasant emotional sides with them.

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thanks, I’ll do that protocol. one more question, since tamoxifen raises LH/FSH leading to testosterone increasing, why people say it totally destroys their libido? I can’t use clomid anymore, but at least I had a good sex drive while on that stuff. I’m afraid tamoxifen may turn my sex drive off but I should give it a try.

I just gave up on clomid, my vision is not that good because of this and I’m searching for a doctor.

That’s a difficult question. Some people say they have raging boners and a high drive others report a complete loss of either sexual function or libido or both. It decreased my libido personally not to zero but noticeably. The thing with tamoxifen and Clomifen is that these drugs cross the blood brain barrier and act on steroid receptors in the brain. The processes there are not understood. It’s clear that 5-HT3 receptors affect sexual function and orgasm which explains dapoxetine and other SRIs. The action of dopamine agonists in also understood quite well since dopamine is important in the ventral tegmental area, the reward pathway which is important for libido. But nandrolone and other agents acting on steroid receptors (“neurosteroids”) are not well understood. I don’t think someone can give you a straight answer to how it does regulate libido and sexual function.
It’s trial and error with that. Luckily I never heard of a tamoxifen dick; so try it.

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thanks for the answer, dude…really. sometimes we find people who understand others suffering. I know it may sound corny, but I’m grateful that exist people like you, most of forum users act like trolls and won’t help desperate ones like myself.

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Just for clarification: that protocol is for PCT. If you want to just heighten your T, I’d take 10 mg Ed or eod.

And thanks.

Hey , I recently took standalone Tamoxifen first week took 40mg a day and then 20mg a day for 2 more weeks and my total T went from 550 to 917 my free test spiked quite a bit as well, I had a tremendous feeling of well being and sky high libido, so for me it makes my libido go up a ton.

When I tapered down to 10mg a day the effects weren’t nearly as pronounced.

I‘m very inclined to try that. Wanted to make a post about SERMS as standalone. I got the Tamox at home but the side effects were nasty for me. Did you have emotional sides? I felt really flat emotionally, tired, depressed and my muscles felt weak. But I took 10 mg, I’m interested in taking 40 because the heightened T and E2 could combat this but with the half life being that long it could ruin at least a week.

Nah, I had the opposite of depression, felt very positive.

The tiredness I can sort of understand , however I am a naturally hyper , energetic person so I like the calming effect it had on me, I have insomnia and on tamoxifen I slept very well. For me it isn’t a tired feeling , more of a calm feeling. My workouts didn’t suffer at all.

You should definitely try a higher dose to see how you feel, on 40mg I could feel the effects very quickly , after like 3 or 4 days.

I’m going to try it when I have a week where top performance isn’t required. Probably august or so.
I had the side effects from day 1 on.
Do I remember correctly that you made a post about that and stopped because the good feeling subsided after a few weeks?

what worries me is those findings, claiming it lowers LH/FSH. I feel lost.

“Tamoxifen exhibits weak estrogen-like properties in postmenopausal women.25,41 There is a partial decrease in luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) levels, increases in sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) levels, decreases in antithrombin III, some changes in vaginal cytology, and hyperplasia of the endometrium (although the last is not consistently reported).”

Okay, men and women don’t produce these the same. That doesn’t have anything to do with how it functions in men.

Just as an FYI, doctors have been using Clomid monotherapy for years in place of testosterone. It works quite well at increasing total testosterone and it has the advantage of not needing to be injected. The downside is that it usually doesn’t work as well as testosterone and a lot of guys get side effects that aren’t pleasant or worth the benefits, which is why it’s not used nearly as often. But it’s a legitimate medical treatment.

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yeah, I know about clomifene because I’ve used it a lot…the issue was visual changes, it’s like there’s something really wrong with your eyes, I had several appointments at a doctor’s office… but regarding tamoxifen, can I trust it for raising T levels? I mean, I start using but unlike clomid, until now my sex drive is totally zero…weird that on clomid it was high.

Because even though serms raise serum T.
Free T is still crap.

I’ve seen guys on clomid go up to 900ng/dl with fT very low.

so I suppose the same goes to tamoxifen, since it’s a SERM. the thing that bothers me the most it’s not that I’m primary or secondary, obviously, although my T levels plummeted in the last years. I know TRT “is the way to go” and all of that, but c’mon…I hate the feeling I’ll bark like a dog to get a prescription from a GP, PLUS the fact they don’t know jack about esters biological half-life. they’re like: “so you take 200 mg test cyp every 21 days and be nice, otherwise I’ll kick you out my office for good.” I’ve seen that picture so many times, that’s why I moved to clomid…but I cannot use something that messes with the eyes that bad. here in Brazil doctors are totally morons, I have to say it.

don’t get me wrong, I love testosterone and don’t have any issues with injections, but the way they control the patient is pointless and imbecile.

Not true, I have bloodwork to prove this isn’t true, at least in the case of tamoxifen.

I had baseline total T of 528 and Free T of 17, after 3 weeks of Tamoxifen at 40/20/20, my total T was 917 free T 136 ( range 35-155)

Also Luteinizing hormone went from 5.5 to 9.2 and FSH went from 2.5 to 4.8.

So while you saw a study that showed LH and FSH levels decrease in WOMEN, men work differently and respond differently to the drug.

Hope that helps.

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thank you for replying, man…I do appreciate you guys sharing your time to gimme some help. it has been difficult for me and people here seem to understand what I’ve been through. I believe in you and I’ll give it a try. thanks again!