Talking Libertarianism

we probably read the same thing but the details are hazy to me … thanks for the link

Just to add a couple of caveats to Lonnie’s comment.

If you look at the philosophical foundations of CBT, you find the Stoic philosophers. Particularly, Epictetus in that tradition. So, the answer would be yes, with a couple of caveats.

With negative visualization, the Stoics found value in looking forward at what could go wrong, expecting that things often don’t go as planned, so you’re more able to cope with challenges that will likely arise.

With CBT, we use that kind of visualization to an extent. I’m thinking of someone with a phobia or OCD behavior visualizing themselves approaching the feared situation, but we don’t want people getting stuck constantly visualizing past events, replaying trauma, or constantly looking forward with dread about what may happen. A lot of times, CBT would look like the opposite, as Lonnie mentioned. Letting the anxiety pass through your mind, but learning to dismiss it. You do expose people to the anxiety producing situation, so they learn that their anxiety response will come down on it’s own, even when they are doing the feared thing (touching the toilet, or standing on the 22nd floor, or whatever). You might visualize doing that, and the possible disasters that might ensue before. In that sense, I see some parallels to CBT, for sure.

You know what is SUPER cool? Of interest to Classical Liberals. John Stuart Mill was also influential on the development of CBT. He developed ideas about cognition and association that were really influential to the work of behaviorists like John Watson, Pavlov, and Skinner. Mill was brilliant. A man among men. Contributions to empiricism, political thought, economics, philosophy, psychology, the rights of women. You have to love him.

Anyway, I think you could easily say that the people who developed CBT stood on the shoulders of Mill, who stood on the shoulders of the Stoics.

I’ll put up a couple of quick links. This little clip on the Stoics mentions Rational Emotive Therapy, which is a type of CBT. Also, here’s a clip about how Mill’s ideas about cognition influenced CBT.

Just 5 minutes or so.

John Stuart Mill and the science of cognition.

http://www.econtalk.org/

Today on EconTalk - Jennifer Burns on Ayn Rand and the Goddess of the Market … interesting talk … I have about 20 minutes left for the ride home.

Talks a good deal about Ayn’s relationship with Mises, Rothbard and other Libertarian and Free Market Economic thinkers of her day

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Not really sure what ya’ll are talking about, lol, but this isn’t true. There’s actually a really interesting book about the rise of Ghengis Khan if you’re interested:

Carry on.

Siege of Baghdad.

And that is an opinion of Genghis Khan. The idea that he and the Mongols are somehow responsible for the modern world is silly since western culture and civilization, what the modern world is based on, would have existed without him, in fact, it existed for centuries before him. How a culture that lacked philosophy, arts, science, etc., could be considered integral to the world as we know it makes no sense. The trade routes from Europe through the Middle East and into China existed in the times of ancient Rome.

Lol, I forgot everyone knows everything about everything here. Fuck the 5+ years of research this Ph.D. in anthropology did on the subject.

Maybe if you read the book it’d make sense. Or don’t, I don’t give a shit, lol. Thanks for the chuckle, though.

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Best you remember from now, fool.

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Cool! Thanks. I’ll check it out.

BTW, about the zerohedge and Peter Schiff question, I don’t know. I just find it a bit dodgy when people are anonymous, and there’s been speculation (at least) about links to Russia with them.

That was fun for me to think about the CBT question, and to stumble on Mill. I didn’t know about that, and he’s a hero so that was cool. I don’t know a lot about the Stoics so I might be missing other parallels. That was just off the top of my head.

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Very funny. Some of the comments are so clever.

Pfff, I already knew it :slight_smile:

Research to support a belief not to simply state facts. The same way he arrived at his opinion I arrived at mine. Dante, Shakespeare, Cervantes, Aristotle, Plato, Spinoza, Michelangelo, Jesus (myth or reality), etc., all would have existed without the Mongols ever existing. This means that we probably would have existed as well.

You don’t even know what’s in the book…

Ya, probably. Good thing that’s not what his book says, but why should that matter…?

Anyway, I thought you’d be interested in the book since you mentioned the Mongols. I thought it was well written and interesting. Do with that what you want. I don’t really care.

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You lean left a fair bit yes? The modern secular administrative state and the concept of meritocracy would be much different in the West if it weren’t for Genghis Khan. Evil/amoral leaders can contribute positive things.

Did the Germans demolish the Autobahn because it was built under Hitler?

If Stalin hadn’t industrialized Russia (killing millions in the process) then WW2 would have gone down way differently.

Nobody ever said Genghis Khan caused western civ. He effected it. Cut your dose down a little.

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I do know as his position is not unique among scholars. I just don’t buy it and my point is that there is more than one side to an evaluation of the Mongols. They destroyed Baghdad and its libraries. It’s quite possible that one could convincingly argue that they caused the end of the Islamic world’s position as a leader, as far as technology and science are concerned, which could be seen as the beginning of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Like I said, I’m not convinced that the Mongols were a positive influence on the development of modern civilization.

First question: no. I stand up straight, it gives a better view of things around me. People with weak backs, lean.

The Mongols certainly had an effect on history but I don’t believe that their impact on the west is as significant as the ancient Greeks or Romans or the Renaissance thinkers and artists in Italy. They developed their ideas without any influence from the Mongols. Ask yourself what would have happened had they conquered western Europe.

…wasn’t a bad guy, just misunderstood. All he needed was a safe space to deal with his anger issues without being judged.

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It comes with the territory when you’re a dwarf.

Damn straight! I love some good Mongolian Beef!

Cool, man. I’m actually envious, I, unfortunately, have to read what someone writes to know what their position is. It’s quite time-consuming and mentally draining at times. I sure wish I was born with what is nothing short of a superpower, like you. Congrats!

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Don’t take it personally. I wouldn’t expect you to have the time to read anything and everything I recommended. I actually appreciate the recommendation. I’m just saying that I disagree with his thesis as I have heard it before. I’m sure his argument and facts and research were well done. It might sound like I’m being dismissive but I’m not. I just disagree. It doesn’t mean his argument is invalid or silly; quite the contrary. I’m not presumptuous enough to say that my opinion is the truth.

Within academia there are differing opinions on the Mongols.