T Nation

Taking the Plunge (Test E/Dbol)

So, after a long sporadic period of deliberation, I’ve decided to jump into cycling.

Age: 25
Height: 5’9"
Weight: ~183-186lbs
BF: ~18% (Note: I won’t be starting the cycle at this %, I’m still in the process of dropping all that fat I accumulated over years without training and with lots of booze and shitty food; it’s been going well, I’m down from likely 30+% but I’m waiting to start until I get into that nice 12-15% range)

Training History: around 5 years cumulatively (16-18, 21, 24 and on; technically more than this but I’m not going to count anything that doesn’t actually constitute any kind of organized strength training).

Current lifts:
Squat (435lbs w/o wraps), Bench (245lbs), Deadlift (550lbs), Press (190lbs).

Cycle History: None

Goals: Gain as much mass and strength as possible, increase PL total for competition (don’t currently care about being in any particular weight class obv).

I’m well aware that I still have significant potential for ‘natty gains’; however, I’m currently at a point in my life where I can rigidly manage nutrition, get 7.5-9 hours of sleep damn near every night, get bloodwork done prior to cycling, on cycle and after, I have evenings available to train for up to 3-4 hrs on 5/7 days of the week and do all my training at home (I have a power rack w/ pullup bar, adjustable bench, and 705lbs in plates among other things), and I’ve been consistently in a good frame of mind with the stresses in my life being pretty predictable. So my lifestyle situation is pretty favorable for this sort of thing. That being the case…

Cycle Plans:

Test E @ 500mg total EW; 250mg every Mon+Thurs (Wks 1-12)

Dbol @ 25mg ED taken preworkout (starting; potentially increasing up to 50mg ED) for 5wks, unsure as to where exactly in the cycle I’ll start, it’d either begin at wk 2 or 3 to kickstart or a bit later around wks 4-6 so I can see more clearly how my body responds to the test and get bloodwork done again before adding a second compound. (Also, should I be taking milk thistle while on this and if so, dosage/frequency?)

Aromasin: 12.5 mg EoD starting from Wk 1 seems to be the standard from what I’ve seen, is that sufficient for the above doses of Test and Dbol? And should it be run for the entire cycle?

HCG: I’ve seen a lot of conflicting reports and recommendations on this. The general consensus seems to be that it is an awful idea to take during PCT but on cycle, I’ve seen it suggested that it should be taken all throughout, that one should wait until the nuts start shrinking, or that it should only be taken near the end of a cycle for 3-4wks. I’ve seen some say it’s not necessary at all and others go as far as to say that I shouldn’t ever expect to have children if I don’t run it. What do y’all suggest on this front?

As for the PCT: I’ve also seen conflicting reports and recommendations on this; the general consensus seems to be 6 wks tapering down but I’ve seen some suggest 4. I’ve seen some suggest taking Clomid and Nolva and others suggesting to only take one, usually just the Nolva from what I’ve seen and almost everyone seems to say that Nolva has far less prominent sides. I’ve also seen some suggest continuing to take an AI during PCT. What would y’all recommend?

As I haven’t yet hit the bf% I want before starting the cycle, I don’t have a precise daily nutrition plan but I’d imagine it’ll end up being something like ~260 g protein, ~150 g fat, ~300 g carbs mostly coming from the standard sources (eggs, whole milk, salmon, steak, rice, etc…), some from whey protein of course. Off topic-ish but beyond whey, the only ‘supplements’ I take are 5 g Creatine HCl and 500 mg Magnesium malate daily.

Thanks to anyone who has read this far and looking forward to hearing your advice!

I look forward to seeing the advice you get and hearing how the cycle progresses. You’re already pushing some heavy weight so make sure you’re psychologically ready for the physiological strength you’re gonna gain… I say that because joint and ligament health is easy to forget on first cycle but can ruin everything if you get injured. Looks like you’ve been doing your homework, keep working on the diet and you’ll be thrilled with results. Good luck!

Il give you my opinion. Maybe some other guys will chime in as well.

Don’t run dbol on your first cycle. It’s a compound that aromatizes which makes everything much more difficult until you find out how your body converts testosterone keep the variables to a minimum.

If your running 500mg/week and insist on using an AI and this is the AI you chose I’d probably start 6.25 EOD. If it were me I wouldn’t use an AI until it was needed there is a good chance of your diet is dialed in and your body fat low you will feel much better without using one.

I dont think it belongs in a blast at all. I think it has a place for men in trt and in other aspects of health but I think it’s 100% unnecessary in a blast or after a blast leading up to pct.

This is the easiest and probably the least debatable of my opinions iv listed.
NOLVA 40/40/20/20

Negative. Iv also seen the stuff about aromasin use thru pct but I personally wouldn’t do it so I wouldn’t feel comfortable suggesting some one else to.

Not bad that should put your around 3500 calories. This might be plenty for you or yoh might find you need an additional 500 or so. But this is a good starting point.

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General update: All is going well with my training and I’ve dropped off a bit more fat, I’d estimate that I’m down between 16 and 17%, closer to the latter, maybe a bit lower if 18% was a highball; it’s tough for me to tell because of the sheer amount of foods that make me get bloated but in any case, I’m looking to introduce cardio now to help accelerate the fat loss a bit.

Yup, jdl; I’ll keep ya posted in thread and yeah, any sort of non-negligible injury would suck.

@zeek1414 Thanks for the advice, I’ll resist the temptation and stay off the dbol first cycle; likely won’t bother with the hcg either.

The current plan looks like this

Wks 1-14:
Test E @ 175 mg EOD (avg 612.5 mg/wk)

Wks 17-18:
Nolva @ 40 mg ED

Wks 19-20:
Nolva @ 20 mg ED

Does this change anything with respect to the AI use (i.e.: is there a weekly test dose at which you think preemptively starting AI would be advisable and does this cross that line? given a consistent well structured diet and bodyfat 12-15%)?

I dont think there is any guidelines to AI use. Altho when you see people post they damn sure make it seem like an AI has to be apart of a cycle. I disagree I say use it as a last resort. Try to let your body adjust the first 4-6 weeks will be a bit of a roller coaster but once levels peak and level out your body should adjust accordingly. That’s what the human body is good at. By adding an AI from the beginning it’s just another variable that can real havoc on a cycle.

If your worried about gyno use nomva on cycle. If estrogen sides get crazy and your dick stops working then sure introduce an AI or just ride the blast out and you will snap back after.

This is my belief for AI use on a test only cycle. When other compounds are involved then my views change.

I read this thread the other day and was going to comment but didn’t get to it. So my comments might be geared towards earlier comments and not the most recent.

First are you sure you want to commit to 3.5 shots per week? With enanthate or cypionate you technically can get away with one shot per week but two helps keep everything stable. Being that it is your first cycle (I think) then just figure your dosage and split that into two equal shots per week. I am years into my cycling and even I don’t like having to figure out when and where to pin my shots, even with a good rotation I still end up pinning in soar muscle and that shit gets old. Now pinning enanthate EOD will help keep the level even more stable vs just two shots a week but at your level of development there is no reason to put yourself through EOD shots. Your levels should be just fine with two equal shots per week. I really don’t think you will see any real benefit if you pin it EOD, but I could be wrong.

I think this was covered but I’ll say it anyway, skip the dbol. Primarily you need to figure out how to handle just massive amounts of test before you start adding in anything, especially another wet compound that will ultimately add estrogen to your system. Remember high natural test levels are about equivalent to 100 mgs of test enanthate per week so 500 is 5 times the high end of the natural amounts. Plus and I promise this to be true, you will be blown away with what just testosterone will do.

With your body fat history you will be aromatizing testosterone at a higher rate vs the next guy. You will continue to aromatize more for a while after you finally get the body fat way down, or at least that is what happened with me. You just need to be aware of this.

Zeek commented about leaving the AI (aromasin I believe) out. Chances are even with you aromatizing test at a higher rate due to body fat history you should be okay provided your dose isn’t up around 750mgs or higher. I think you said 500 originally then it was 600 something. Either one you will probably be okay without an AI but I would not start the cycle without having some on hand for emergency. If you need to start taking it I would start at 12.5 mgs on the days you pin your test, that is if you pin only two times a week. Even though aromasin has a short half life it’s benefits last around three days (it kills the enzyme out right). Unfortunately for us guys will high body fat history we tend to need AIs more than the general population so be aware and self monitor. I recommend reading and rereading signs of high estrogen in men and re-rereading it during the cycle and for the first few cycles to boot.

Other than all that, you have already made some good significant progress so hold your head up and keep it up (your head and the hard work). I know from experience what it takes to make those changes and I know the joy of finally seeing positive results in the mirror!

this might help OP as well but someone here suggested nolva throughout the cycle, what dosage is that generally recommended?

Everything Zeek and Now_i_care said.

Also at your weight, you’d probably gain rapidly on 400 mg Test E per week.

Adding more test probably just give you more side effects, keep it down and you wont need nolva, or an AI.

Pin every 5 days, probably optimal . . . . not eod.