Take Care Of Our Own?

[quote]derek wrote:
So that’s the rich peoples fault?

You want them to pay what, 50% of thier income in taxes? We’re already close. Now what?

[/quote]
I didn’t write income tax. I wrote luxury tax. No sense penalizing them twice on what they “earn”. But since a $50,000,000 sail boat (not including all the incomes needed to run said boat) is not an item that the average person will ever afford (or need) it will only affect those that can, etc.

Luxury taxes are harmless and would affect less than 1% of all purchases made.

More rich people profit at the expense of our military than the average person so I say let the rich pay for their military.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
But since a $50,000,000 sail boat (not including all the incomes needed to run said boat) is not an item that the average person will ever afford (or need) it will only affect those that can, etc.
[/quote]

Yet you cannot escape for that evil little term “need”.

That pretty much sums up what the problem is.

It’s now up to you to decide what people do and do not need.
Where would that end I wonder?
He doesn’t NEED fine dining, let him go to Applebee’s.
No one NEEDS a swimming pool, let them drive to the ocean.

That’s an underlying sickness but it doesn’t get past some of us.

Why don’t you get rid of everything YOU don’t NEED, then we can talk.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Luxury taxes are harmless and would affect less than 1% of all purchases made.
[/quote]

If you actually LOWERED the luxury tax, more luxury items would then be built and sold creating more revenue and jobs. I wonder how many people are employed to build an enormously large luxury vessel?

Taxing things always leads to less consumption. I would think this’d be elementary by now.

Bill and Bob Healey, co-owners of Viking Yachts, a boat-manufacturing company in New Gretna, N.J., know more than they ever wanted to know about “tax fairness,” a popular concept on Capital Hill these days and one likely to be discussed even more frequently in the months ahead.

What leaders of the tax-increase bloc in Congress refer to as “tax fairness” has largely been responsible for the Healey brothers’ laying off of 1,150 of their 1,400 employees and closing one of their two boat-building facilities over the past several months.

Specifically, the business and its workers have been hurt by a new tax imposed Jan. 1 on such luxury items as boats, autos, airplanes, jewelry, and furs with prices above a certain amount. The tax was enacted as part of last year’s five-year, $500 billion deficit-reduction law.

“Fairness” was a major justification for the tax. Congress saw it as a relatively harmless way to raise revenue for the government by penalizing the rich without hurting lower- and middle-income individuals, who seldom buy such luxury items.

But the luxury tax “has killed us,” says Bill Healey. “We’ve never seen anything like this.”

The boat industry alone, which is made up primarily of small, family-owned businesses, estimates it will lose more than 19,000 jobs this year because of the tax.

Beech Aircraft Corp., in Wichita, Kan., says it lost 39 airplane sales in the first quarter of this year as a direct result of the tax. Beech had planned to add 500 jobs in 1991 but has instead laid off 20 workers. It says the 39 lost sales would have provided a year’s worth of work for 255 employees.

OOOOOPS!

[quote]derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Luxury taxes are harmless and would affect less than 1% of all purchases made.

If you actually LOWERED the luxury tax, more luxury items would then be built and sold creating more revenue and jobs. I wonder how many people are employed to build an enormously large luxury vessel?

Taxing things always leads to less consumption. I would think this’d be elementary by now.

[/quote]

Didn’t domestic yacht builders take a big hit when Clinton imposed a luxury tax?

Rich people didn’t stop buying boats. They just bought them overseas putting Americans out of work.

[quote]derek wrote:
Bill and Bob Healey, co-owners of Viking Yachts, a boat-manufacturing company in New Gretna, N.J., know more than they ever wanted to know about “tax fairness,” a popular concept on Capital Hill these days and one likely to be discussed even more frequently in the months ahead.

…[/quote]

You beat me to it!!!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
derek wrote:
Bill and Bob Healey, co-owners of Viking Yachts, a boat-manufacturing company in New Gretna, N.J., know more than they ever wanted to know about “tax fairness,” a popular concept on Capital Hill these days and one likely to be discussed even more frequently in the months ahead.

You beat me to it!!![/quote]

We made a pretty good team just then!

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Luxury taxes are harmless and would affect less than 1% of all purchases made.

If you actually LOWERED the luxury tax, more luxury items would then be built and sold creating more revenue and jobs. I wonder how many people are employed to build an enormously large luxury vessel?

Taxing things always leads to less consumption. I would think this’d be elementary by now.

Didn’t domestic yacht builders take a big hit when Clinton imposed a luxury tax?

Rich people didn’t stop buying boats. They just bought them overseas putting Americans out of work.
[/quote]

The privelege of being rich is that you can also choose who or who not to do business with. Let them try and slip their yachts on American proper-- I can garantee you the tax from bringing and registering a foreign made boat into the US would be much worse than paying an excise tax.

[quote]derek wrote:
The boat industry alone, which is made up primarily of small, family-owned businesses, estimates it will lose more than 19,000 jobs this year because of the tax.

[/quote]

Well, we are speaking in relative terms here. About 20,000 jobs lost in total, so what? Ford just laid off like 200,000 employees that only built average transportation. It sucks to be a little yacht builder in a country with people who are too cheap to pay “fair” taxes. People are still going to buy boats here…just not super duper luxury yachts…oh well.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… I can garantee you the tax from bringing and registering a foreign made boat into the US would be much worse than paying an excise tax.[/quote]

I highly doubt it.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
The boat industry alone, which is made up primarily of small, family-owned businesses, estimates it will lose more than 19,000 jobs this year because of the tax.

Well, we are speaking in relative terms here. About 20,000 jobs lost in total, so what? Ford just laid off like 200,000 employees that only built average transportation. It sucks to be a little yacht builder in a country with people who are too cheap to pay “fair” taxes. People are still going to buy boats here…just not super duper luxury yachts…oh well.[/quote]

  1. You are obviously NOT one of those “few” 20,000 that became jobless as a direct result of what you consider a good idea.

  2. Who’s going to pay for the lost revenue that is gleaned from the building of luxury items which are no longer bought and run in great number due to your “fair taxes”?

  3. A “little yacht builder”? There you go again! Small business, which YOU propose to tax into extinction are the very things that make this country run.

  4. Too cheap to pay “fair taxes”? We already are paying between 30% and 40% of our income in taxation across the board.

What tax rate would make you happy? Maybe 60%? How about 80%?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… I can garantee you the tax from bringing and registering a foreign made boat into the US would be much worse than paying an excise tax.

I highly doubt it.
[/quote]

Yes, as long as we are talking about the actual taxes as they exist now not only would you pay the excise tax but also the import taxes…not to mention all the other various registration fees. Let’s not forget the taxes you will undoubtedly pay in the country of purchase. Go ahead, buy a luxury boat in another country–the Dutch are pretty awesome shipwrights.

Here is the Customs brochure concerning import pleasure boats:

It only talks about the import duty not the luxury tax.

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/toolbox/publications/travel/pleasureboats.ctt/pleasureboats.doc

[quote]derek wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
derek wrote:
The boat industry alone, which is made up primarily of small, family-owned businesses, estimates it will lose more than 19,000 jobs this year because of the tax.

Well, we are speaking in relative terms here. About 20,000 jobs lost in total, so what? Ford just laid off like 200,000 employees that only built average transportation. It sucks to be a little yacht builder in a country with people who are too cheap to pay “fair” taxes. People are still going to buy boats here…just not super duper luxury yachts…oh well.

  1. You are obviously NOT one of those “few” 20,000 that became jobless as a direct result of what you consider a good idea.

  2. Who’s going to pay for the lost revenue that is gleaned from the building of luxury items which are no longer bought and run in great number due to your “fair taxes”?

  3. A “little yacht builder”? There you go again! Small business, which YOU propose to tax into extinction are the very things that make this country run.

  4. Too cheap to pay “fair taxes”? We already are paying between 30% and 40% of our income in taxation across the board.

What tax rate would make you happy? Maybe 60%? How about 80%?
[/quote]

Hey, I just want to “support the troops”. Everyone wants to talk about giving them this and that without talking about where the money is supposed to come from. Would you rather see a luxury tax on something you will never buy or just a general tax rate increase. Let the rich pay for the war–it makes the most sense to me.

I hope they can find more work. Unemployment happens all the time–maybe they can go work for a smaller boat company that doesn’t cater to the super-duper wealthy. Or maybe they can enter into a new trade altogether…free enterprise, huh?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Hey, I just want to “support the troops”. Everyone wants to talk about giving them this and that without talking about where the money is supposed to come from. Would you rather see a luxury tax on something you will never buy or just a general tax rate increase. Let the rich pay for the war–it makes the most sense to me.

I hope they can find more work. Unemployment happens all the time–maybe they can go work for a smaller boat company that doesn’t cater to the super-duper wealthy. Or maybe they can enter into a new trade altogether…free enterprise, huh?[/quote]

How about cutting the frigging spending that our government (Rep. and Dem.) sees fit to increase every year?

We (as a federal goverment) tax way too much in order to spend way too much.

Here’s a very small example:

An example of the way money is being wasted on hurricane relief can be demonstrated in the microcosm of Saint Bernard Parish in Louisiana. According to an item in the Washington Post, the parish was so devastated by the hurricane that they laid off 206 of their 390 police officers. There?s no money to pay them, so they have to hire security.

Before the hurricane, the parish paid its entry-level officers about $18,000 a year, which is about $70 a day based on 8-hour days and a 52-week work year. It paid its veteran officers about $30,000 a year, which is $115 a day. Even loaded with benefits that only comes out to about $90 and $150 a day, respectively. What?s hiring private security going to cost?

Right now Blackwater USA, a firm that ?sells? security, is already billing the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) $950 a day for each employee it ?rents? to protect FEMA sites in the state. However, there?s a good chance that FEMA can get another company, DynCorp, to provide that service in St. Bernard Parish at the bargain rate of about $700 a day.

Why is the parish willing to pay out this amount of money for security? Well, it?s not. It has a sugar-daddy called Uncle Sam who it expects to foot this bill. You see, nothing?s too good for St. Bernard Parish if they don?t have to pay for it.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
I always used to have trouble with the gas blow back stinging and watering up my eyes.

[/quote]

I know what you mean. My BCGs would fog up sometimes, especially if it was really hot and humid, or if it was raining.

Dustin

there is a bit of skewed information in the op. when the statistics of the percentage of total american citizen involvement in wars are given, the figures don’t take in to account the differences in population then and now.

a half percent today is probably more than two percent of the population in the 30’s and 40’s. i don’t feel like looking up the census data to do the math, but i would think it is a safe bet.

also, who cares if we can’t sustain military action in the middle east?

what have we accomplished so far?

we do have saddam (supposedly. google saddam look alikes, take in to consideration the intel of the group carrying out his death and see what you think)

capturing saddam wasn’t that big of a deal either. he posed no threat to us or our oil, as saudi arabia has the clout in the middle east anyways, and they are our allies.

we don’t have bin laden, the region hates us more now than ever which leads to greater attack risk, our country is torn on political beliefs so much so that the bullshit patriot act was passed which effectively undermined the check and balance system, we are spending billions of dollars per year on what? forcing soldiers to camp in 120 degree deserts?

all we have really done is a favor for people who couldn’t rid themselves of their own dictator, and at a huge cost to us.

terrorism can’t be the concern. if it was, we would leave and let the situation cool down. we have found that flexing military might against religiously motivated guerrilla warriors does not present the same results as fighting a military with a military. it only solidifies the enemies stance.

wmd’s are not the concern. we now know, and bush has admitted, that iraq had none.

so we are rebuilding iraq? bullshit. they are humans with brains, and the new regime can come up with their own gov’t. we already did them the favor of removing hussein.

the only benefit reaped from iraq is financial and for privately owned companies. halliburton being the primary gainer, and dick cheney, a friend of bush sr’s a huge benefactor of halliburton’s financial growth.

interestingly, in a fruitful new oil drilling zone, our gas prices have risen exponentially. so, with more oil available on the market, why are prices rising at the pump? apparantly we aren’t in iraq to secure cheap oil prices either.

if we were, it would make sense that we also ousted hugo chavez and took over venezeula’s oil, toppled the mexican gov’t and took their over their oil production, and then nationalized all of our own oil production to set standard, low prices. none of this seems to be an issue at all.

so why exactly are we in iraq? maybe a lack of willing soldiers says something about majority opinion, and maybe our political leaders should do their jobs and represent the majority of the public like they were voted in to office to do.

[quote]derek wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:
Let’s arm them properly too.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

Let’s give all the money allotted to the National Endowment for the Arts to the Armed Forces!

$99,000,000! per year.[/quote]
this would be like taking us from the age of enlightenment back to the dark ages. why erase hundreds of years of social evolution to support another people’s war?

knowing now that iraq had no wmd’s, hussein is dead anyways and cheney got his oil, there is no reason to remain in iraq.

i am all for concentrating 100% of the resources we already have in afghanistan to find bin laden, but there is no need to increase military presence and spend more money.

links to the weapon our troops need

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
… I can garantee you the tax from bringing and registering a foreign made boat into the US would be much worse than paying an excise tax.

I highly doubt it.

Yes, as long as we are talking about the actual taxes as they exist now not only would you pay the excise tax but also the import taxes…not to mention all the other various registration fees. Let’s not forget the taxes you will undoubtedly pay in the country of purchase. Go ahead, buy a luxury boat in another country–the Dutch are pretty awesome shipwrights.

Here is the Customs brochure concerning import pleasure boats:

It only talks about the import duty not the luxury tax.

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/toolbox/publications/travel/pleasureboats.ctt/pleasureboats.doc[/quote]

You don’t have to import it. Just register it in Liberia.

These things don’t sit in a port in Milwaukee. They travel the world.

Most rich people probably keep them in the Caribbean somewhere. They easily get around importation and excise taxes.

In trying to punish the rich it was the working man that was punished. As it always is.

In starting this thread I meant to focus on those of us who do the dirty work for their country and community in return for very little. Our military service personnel were the first concern, but fire and emergency services personnel are another group that work hard and dangerous jobs to “keep the beast at bay.” A small pay check and some measure of respect (maybe) aren’t enough to maintain the high level of performance that we demand of these people. A certain ethic and esprit de corps has to be in place as well. The members of the general public should recognize the need for this and allow those service members to pursue it. While I see that there are some here who appear to be campaigning for the “Society for Affluent Rights Protection,” the people who do the dirty work are the focus here. These are the people who might, GASP!, lower your property values by living near you: http://www.habitat.org/hw/june-july04/feature2d.html USATODAY.com
but you damned sure can’t do without them.

Firefighters Claim Giuliani Ignored Needs After 9/11

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=a8o5p2XiTQhk

Remember the firefighters arrested at ground zero for protesting the slowdown of recovery of remains, both the workers in towers and the FIREFIGHTERS WHO RAN INTO THE BUILDINGS TO TRY TO SAVE THEM ? Here is example of TAKING CARE OF OUR OWN that might haunt Giuliani’s election prospects. Like Marines, Rangers and other members of our armed services firefighters honor and respect their fallen. NO ONE LEFT BEHIND.