T Nation

Taekwondo Considers its Future

[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:

True. The story is often forgotten how Choi Hong Hi earned a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan, made some very small changes and created Tae Kwon Do. And of course Shotokan, created by Funakoshi only dates to the early 1900’s. Yet TKD claims a history thousands of years old.
[/quote]

That history is false though. TKD is not ANYWHERE near that old.

Very cool.

[quote]Wayland wrote:
ITF taekwondo looks alot like Shotokhan, problem is both ITF and WTF sparring styles emphasis a hands down side stance for sparring which is terrible for defending shoots and easy to lose balance doing.

Nami Juji Jime is a collar choke, anyone who trains purely no gi won’t know it. But its white belt stuff in BJJ, If you watch the rorion gracie video where he comments on dojo challenges alot of the victories are with that exact choke.[/quote]

Although todays UFC fighters are in much better shape, and are slicker fighters - I really liked the first 7 UFC’s back in the early 1990’s better , partly because you would see such variation in technique. All the UFC MMA fighters look like variations of the same thing.

If you want to hear about the real history of TKD, get “A Killing Art” by Alex Gillis. I really enjoyed it, but as a tkd practitioner, I’m a bit biased.

[quote]Zack Nelson wrote:
Wayland wrote:
ITF taekwondo looks alot like Shotokhan, problem is both ITF and WTF sparring styles emphasis a hands down side stance for sparring which is terrible for defending shoots and easy to lose balance doing.

Nami Juji Jime is a collar choke, anyone who trains purely no gi won’t know it. But its white belt stuff in BJJ, If you watch the rorion gracie video where he comments on dojo challenges alot of the victories are with that exact choke.

Although todays UFC fighters are in much better shape, and are slicker fighters - I really liked the first 7 UFC’s back in the early 1990’s better , partly because you would see such variation in technique. All the UFC MMA fighters look like variations of the same thing.
[/quote]

What UFC are you watching when I see Anderson Silva fight I see precision striking, GSP unstoppable takedowns, Demian Maia amazing jiu jitsu, heck Fedor doesn’t even do bjj or traditional wrestling he does judo and sambo.

What the hell, I know about the collar choke and I’m a boxer. I don’t even practice or study BJJ/Jap-Jitsu or Judo on a regular basis. On the occasions I have been to BJJ as a newb, I was using the collar choke alot in free-rolling/sparring.

I don’t think you see it alot in MMA because A) it’s alot easier to utilize when the person has a collar, hence the name “collar choke” and B) It’s not practical to do when getting punched in the face and you also sacrifice your hand placement for what could’ve been used on a more effective setup , lock, choke or just punching the guy in the face.

[quote]drewh wrote:
Zack Nelson wrote:
Wayland wrote:
ITF taekwondo looks alot like Shotokhan, problem is both ITF and WTF sparring styles emphasis a hands down side stance for sparring which is terrible for defending shoots and easy to lose balance doing.

Nami Juji Jime is a collar choke, anyone who trains purely no gi won’t know it. But its white belt stuff in BJJ, If you watch the rorion gracie video where he comments on dojo challenges alot of the victories are with that exact choke.

Although todays UFC fighters are in much better shape, and are slicker fighters - I really liked the first 7 UFC’s back in the early 1990’s better , partly because you would see such variation in technique. All the UFC MMA fighters look like variations of the same thing.

What UFC are you watching when I see Anderson Silva fight I see precision striking, GSP unstoppable takedowns, Demian Maia amazing jiu jitsu, heck Fedor doesn’t even do bjj or traditional wrestling he does judo and sambo.[/quote]

GSP and Silva are the “elite” of the UFC, he’s talking about the lower tiers of UFC talent, and I do have to agree with him there. In the lower skill levels, they all pretty much display cookie cutter skillsets.

[quote]Wayland wrote:
ITF taekwondo looks alot like Shotokhan, problem is both ITF and WTF sparring styles emphasis a hands down side stance for sparring which is terrible for defending shoots and easy to lose balance doing.
.[/quote]

Interesting. I do ITF and we’re taught hands up - what’s taught seems very school/instructor dependent.

Good article - thanks for posting that.


AC

[quote]Alwyn Cosgrove wrote:
Good article - thanks for posting that.


AC[/quote]

Thanks for stopping by.
come back too.

kmc

I will :slight_smile:
I just don’t post too much.

I started in ITF TKD back home. Hadn’t heard of this event.
Saw some of the fights on the internet this afternoon though.

This is another ITF event: http://www.pro-taekwondo.com/ - kind of like a kickboxing league. It’s a step in the right direction at least.

TKD as I learned it and competed in was pretty hard. People got KO’d and most of the black belts had good hands as well as kicking. All the bars and clubs in my area had TKD black belts working as bouncers. They could all handle themselves.

There were some decent ITF guys who transitioned into MMA: Zelg Galesic (fought above), Stephan Tapilatu, and Mark Weir to name a couple.

TKD nowadays is dire. The top athletes (WTF or ITF) are amazing, but as a fighting system it’s lost it’s way. It just hasn’t been updated.

The ATA point karate stuff can be impressive - as a SPORT - but it’s like the XMA stuff – impressive to look at, but in no ways can it be considered a fighting system.

I should mention though that my friend is teaching Taekwon-do (ITF style) at Big John McCarthy’s academy here in town, but it’s a very modified system, more resembling a kickboxing/self defense style.


AC

My experience is very similar. I have practised TKD (WTF Style) for 20 years now, but my old instructor was an ex-ITF practitioner who worked on the doors and taught a modified system that was far more street-based than traditional based. We would focus on sport-specfic training depending on if we had tournaments etc coming up, but the self-defence stuff was real good, all about distance control and positioning of aggressor etc etc along with a heavy emphasis on close-range hand strikes and controlling downed opponents. This was more based on real world experience rather than TKD, but it was all taught under the same banner of Taekwondo.

I now teach myself and follow a similar pattern. I teach TKD for the sport side, but I am also experienced in grappling and submission wrestling, and have also boxed, so I use a combination of these styles rather than TKD for more self-defence and practical orientated training. Taekwondo just doesn’t address real world issues with it’s training system and techniques. It has value as a sport and for health, fitness etc but for real world self defence, it’s worthless.

TKD can be a great intro for kids, esp wrt conditioning. Later on they can choose to pursue more serious arts as young adults.

TKD is the martial art suburban moms will tolerate. Kina Mutai, nope. :slight_smile:

Really interesting article. I did two years of TKD some time ago and enjoyed the sporting aspects. I do believe however that as a combat system its only value at the moment is as a “gateway art”- it introduces people to martial arts and maybe leads them to something more appropriate to their goals. I do worry however that a lot of people training TKD in leisure centres and church halls are developing a potentially dangerous false confidence.

A friend I trained TKD with took it upon himself to start a fight with someone he had a long standing problem with after about 2 months of training once a week, because his new skills led him to believe he could now hold his own (yeah we were 17 years old and he was/is a douche). So he dropped into a rigid L stance and it all went predictably wrong.

He actually told our instructor, who rather than slapping him in the head for stupidity told him that if he stuck with it his “street fighting” would improve. Not saying this holds true everywhere, but it is symptomatic of the false confidence I am talking about.

[quote]Roundhead wrote:
Really interesting article. I did two years of TKD some time ago and enjoyed the sporting aspects. I do believe however that as a combat system its only value at the moment is as a “gateway art”- it introduces people to martial arts and maybe leads them to something more appropriate to their goals. I do worry however that a lot of people training TKD in leisure centres and church halls are developing a potentially dangerous false confidence.

A friend I trained TKD with took it upon himself to start a fight with someone he had a long standing problem with after about 2 months of training once a week, because his new skills led him to believe he could now hold his own (yeah we were 17 years old and he was/is a douche). So he dropped into a rigid L stance and it all went predictably wrong.

He actually told our instructor, who rather than slapping him in the head for stupidity told him that if he stuck with it his “street fighting” would improve. Not saying this holds true everywhere, but it is symptomatic of the false confidence I am talking about.[/quote]

The sad thing is that when these cats lose a fight it shatters their world… which is kind of odd to me considering I lost my first fight with kindergarten. Lookin back on it I think it was likely a good thing.

Once again I second Irish.

Losing fights can definitely be a good thing, as long as you choose to learn form the experience.

My dad used to “teach” me boxing, and my first streetfights were with my cousins. Took a whuppin but it definitely made me understand the difference between what’s flashy and what’s effective.

Sounds like both the ‘friend and the teacher’ still don’t get that.

Has nobody else noticed that Alwyn Cosgrove reads here and posted…

kmc

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
Has nobody else noticed that Alwyn Cosgrove reads here and posted…

kmc[/quote]

I was just going to say something about it. Wish he’d post more! Alwyn is one of my favorites, although I hate the fuck for introducing complexes to my otherwise happy world.

The old saying goes “you learn a little from victory, you learn more from defeat”
That day came to me when I had my ass beat by a kyokushinkai BB.

Also Cosgrove complex is one of my favorite conditioners.

I just got back into TKD after not being active for 13 + yrs. Not many schools to choose from in my area. a couple mini mall family schools. I choose the one that is least like them. I was surprised when on my 2nd day. instead of starting me at a white belt. he wants me to start at a green belt. kinda bummed.

I was hoping to beat up on some white belts and bring home some easy 1st place trophies. I still got it. still all the moves. great flexibility. not as much as I had then. but in time it will be back. I enjoy it for the sport, discipline, workout etc… not sure how it would help in a fight. but its fun to me. he also offers. japanese j.j and judo. not sure there differance between bjj and jjj?

I am not impressed that they do 0 flexibilty work. everyone there has flexibilty of a football player! and to be honest… they all pretty much suck

[quote]MNguns wrote:
I just got back into TKD after not being active for 13 + yrs. Not many schools to choose from in my area. a couple mini mall family schools. I choose the one that is least like them. I was surprised when on my 2nd day. instead of starting me at a white belt. he wants me to start at a green belt. kinda bummed.

I was hoping to beat up on some white belts and bring home some easy 1st place trophies. I still got it. still all the moves. great flexibility. not as much as I had then. but in time it will be back. I enjoy it for the sport, discipline, workout etc… not sure how it would help in a fight. but its fun to me. he also offers. japanese j.j and judo. not sure there differance between bjj and jjj?

I am not impressed that they do 0 flexibilty work. everyone there has flexibilty of a football player! and to be honest… they all pretty much suck[/quote]

Time to find a new dojo buddy

there’s none around my area. maybe 2 or 3. and they are all the sat am family mini mall shit. my old school was serious traditional tkd. make a mistake. ur working it off with situps. fuck up? teacher would hit u with the wood sword.