T Nation

T3/T4 Mix

What the hell is it?
The way Asia has this listed it is making research a real bitch. it states
T-3 - 16.7mcg per tab
NOTE: T3/T4 mix. 16.7mcg of T3 plus 67mcg of T4 = 83mcg total. T3/T4 ratio is 4.22 to 1 same as natural human body.

Is this Armour thyroid?
Cytomel maybe??

I have 50 so I assume (rounding to 17mcg per pill) a 32x3days then 48x3days then 64x4days then back down 48x3days, 32x3days and 16x3days. That equals 49 pills.

I assume this as is it was any of the listed above this would be normal but I dont know what to treat these as…

Armour Thyroid is a brand name of a product that is at this 4.22 to 1 ratio, at various dosages per tablet. But very little of its weight is T3 or T4, so (for example) it takes 120 mg of it to be supposedly equivalent to 50 mcg of T3.

There is no valid ratio factor between T4 and T3, but roughly speaking T4 is about 1/4 as potent as T3.

So, as a rough approximation the 67 mcg of T4 could be counted as in effect adding about another 17 mcg worth of T3, for a total of about 34 mcg T3.

So I’d figure these as being comparable to about that much T3.

I would not exceed 1.5 tabs per day.

Sounds like Armour or a generic glandular formulation. The only other T3/T4 combo that I know of is Thyrolar and the amounts you listed are not the same as that particular formulation. Cytomel is T3 only.

I have a bottle of Armour in front of me. 1/4 grain tabs (15mg) they contain 9.5mcg of T4 and 2.25mcg of T3.

It seems as though for what you have each tab is equiv to 180mg or 2 grains.

Don’t know if any of that is helpful! :slight_smile:

EDIT: I agree with Bill in regards to dosages.

I did read where 100mcg of T3 is the upper usable limit

All I can find to read is where they are ramping up T3 to about 100 then back down. Cytomel calls for the same protocol but taking many pills at different times through out the day.

So should I research this as just T3 and present a outline for usage or should I refer to this as another “name”

Thanks

B0nzz

100 mcg is definitely on the high side if that’s pure T3. Not unheard of, but certainly not advisable. Aside from potentially unwanted side effects (and I’m assuming that your thyroid levels are relatively normal to begin with), it’ll become far more catabolic than a lower dose regime. At 25 mcg it’s not hard to hang onto muscle, ime.

100 mcg T3/day is a great way to lose muscle fast, and strength even faster. Perhaps some can tolerate it but what I just described is the expected outcome for most.

So am I using the T3 16.7mcg per tab number or 67mcg of T4 Or 83mcg total of T3/T4

I would assume then

  1. If run Like Cytomel I would ramp up to about 50-75 then back down
  2. If run like T3 1 per day fits the bill
  3. T4 T3 is approximately 4 times as potent as T4 ( wtf ) but start with 25

I can just not wrap my head around this. …4.22 to 1, same as natural human body …line doesn’t help either

[quote]B0nzz wrote:
So am I using the T3 16.7mcg per tab number or 67mcg of T4 Or 83mcg total of T3/T4

I would assume then

  1. If run Like Cytomel I would ramp up to about 50-75 then back down
  2. If run like T3 1 per day fits the bill
  3. T4 T3 is approximately 4 times as potent as T4 ( wtf ) but start with 25

I can just not wrap my head around this. …4.22 to 1, same as natural human body …line doesn’t help either
[/quote]

Bonzz, you’re making things more complicated than necessary.

T3 is the relevant thyroid hormone for fat burning purposes, so you just need to focus on total T3 intake. Cytomel is just a synthetic T3 medicine, so no need to muddy things up with options 1 vs 2 above.

T4 is just a storage form of T3 in the body. Hypothyroid patients often prefer a mix of thyroid hormones that approximates the body’s own ratio; that isn’t necessarily a big deal for you, taking it as a supp to raise thyroid activity, but that’s somewhat beside the point.

Bill wrote that you can roughly assume a 4 to 1 ratio of T4 to T3 yield in the body. (I believe that he wrote “roughly” because it can vary depending on your diet and various other factors. Hopefully he’ll correct me if I’m wrong.) So anyway, for every 4 mcg or so of T4, you ultimately end up with 1 mcg of T3. And as Bill pointed out again, your total T3 intake per tab is going to be roughly 16 mcg (T3) + 67/4 mcg (T4 that is being converted to T3), which comes out to about 33 mcg.

Personally, I’d just start with a single tab and see how things work. I wouldn’t automatically ramp up… I’d give it some time and adjust up fractionally if necessary.

Hope that helps.

[quote]B0nzz wrote:
So am I using the T3 16.7mcg per tab number or 67mcg of T4 Or 83mcg total of T3/T4

I would assume then

  1. If run Like Cytomel I would ramp up to about 50-75 then back down
  2. If run like T3 1 per day fits the bill
  3. T4 T3 is approximately 4 times as potent as T4 ( wtf ) but start with 25

I can just not wrap my head around this. …4.22 to 1, same as natural human body …line doesn’t help either
[/quote]

I wouldn’t sweat over it to much.
A lot of men on GH 4-6iu day report 25mcg of T4 taken at bedtime works just fine for them - I am assuming you will be running this with the GH. Start at a lower dose, see how your body reacts and take it from there. Specially if you are administering GH concurrently.

However if you do want to sweat over it:

http://www.ehealthspan.com/download/Thyroid%20Optimization2.rtf

I will be running the T4 with the GH and will start with even lower.

Thanks Whotook…I will relax…
Alpha F, thanks, that is what I couldn’t find
Yes I will be utilizing GH (and these t3’s) once I reduce my liver a little, I pushed it hard for a while and want to give it a break., PLUS BBB has a theory that cheap chins GH enlarges the liver and may give you “roid gut” or upper abdominal bloating. So I wanted to try and get a baseline for size…

Thanks for the help all

B0nzz

With regards the GH, I gently encourage you to do some research and thinking over a condition called lipodystrophy.

“Side effects seen with the use of somatropin include otitis media and other ear disorders in patient with Turner’s syndrome; allergic reaction; intracranial hypertension; lipodystrophy; pain or swelling at the site of injection; pancreatitis; slipped capital femoral epiphysis; carpal tunnel syndrome; gynecomastia; headache; increased growth of nevi; joint or muscle pain; peripheral edema; and unusual tiredness or weakness.”

http://www.aidsinfo.nih.gov/DrugsNew/DrugDetailT.aspx?int_id=327


"Protease Paunch / Insulin Resistance

This is something that we are seeing more of with all the protease inhibitors. The symptoms include: a belly larger in appearance, decreased muscle mass in arms and legs, increased triglycerides, cholesterol, liver enzymes and blood sugar. The larger belly appearance is due to fat deposits. Stress on the liver and toxicity of the protease inhibitors seem to be the cause of increased triglycerides, cholesterol, liver enzymes and blood sugar. These are all symptoms in decreases insulin sensitivity. Protease inhibitors lower testosterone, and low testosterone is known to correlate with increased insulin resistance in men. In women, insulin resistance increases with elevated testosterone. HIV+ women with low testosterone is associated with low body cell mass, and increased fat mass."

[quote]B0nzz wrote:
Thanks Whotook…I will relax…
Alpha F, thanks, that is what I couldn’t find
Yes I will be utilizing GH (and these t3’s) once I reduce my liver a little, I pushed it hard for a while and want to give it a break., PLUS BBB has a theory that cheap chins GH enlarges the liver and may give you “roid gut” or upper abdominal bloating. So I wanted to try and get a baseline for size…

Thanks for the help all

B0nzz[/quote]

This stuff will not get you the results you are looking for. What you have is a hormone for hypothyroidism. As you stated, the majority is T4 with a little bit of T3. T4 gets converted to T3 once consumed. What happens most often though is a percentage of that T4 will convert to the inactive ReverseT3. Often times more will be converted to RT3 than T3. RT3 will block the T3 receptor sites leaving you with shitty results and an underactive thyroid. Some with hypothyroidism take only cytomel without the T4 for this reason. Pure T3 would be a much better choice if you can get it. Ditch the T4.

T4 is fundamentally stupid as a pharmaceutical but for the advantage of a longer half-life, which with typical patients is a real advantage.

The fact that Armour Thyroid and copies use the same ratio of T4 to T3 as in the human body is not an advantage except again in terms of half-life, but in bb’ing we don’t consider it too severe an imposition to dose something 2x/day. So in bb’ing there really is no reason to use T4 but preferably only T3, as Caged says.

However, if that’s all that’s available, it’s usable.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
T4 is fundamentally stupid as a pharmaceutical but for the advantage of a longer half-life, which with typical patients is a real advantage.

The fact that Armour Thyroid and copies use the same ratio of T4 to T3 as in the human body is not an advantage except again in terms of half-life, but in bb’ing we don’t consider it too severe an imposition to dose something 2x/day. So in bb’ing there really is no reason to use T4 but preferably only T3, as Caged says.

However, if that’s all that’s available, it’s usable.[/quote]

Bill, what’s your take on the rt3 theory? I know it isn’t a widely accepted theory in the medical community. Doesn’t it make sense that the t4 would have too much conversion to rt3, challenging the t3 for receptor sites making it somewhat detrimental?

Dessicated thyroid also contains T2, T1 and Calcitonin, which may also serve some bodybuilding uses, specifically the T2. I believe that T2 supplementation has been suggested to be catabolic to adiopose tissue, yet sparing to skeletal muscle. A good friend of mine, quite a well known thyroid specialist in the UK, believes that T2 could be more metabolically active than T3.

T4 therapy is quite possibly one of the most flawed that could be; yes the half life is long, but you rely on the success of enzymatic cleaving to make the biologically active T3. If someone has any form of enzymatic failure present, the T4 remains pooled in the bloodstream and can suffer from T4 toxicosis. I experienced this on a couple of occasions and it was not pleasant; you suffer the negative side effects associated with hyperthyroidism: tachycardia, palpitations, gastric upset, panic disorder all whilst still being clinically hypothyroid.

T4 is also incredibly cheap to manufacture. I suspect part of its’ continued use is due to high profitability. Certainly in the UK, most NHS primary care trusts (which operate under specific budgets) will 9 times out of 10 prescribe T4 monotherapy.

The rT3 theory hasn’t been received with much fanfare in the conventional medical fraternity, and certainly not in the UK at least. Thats not to say that this phenomenon doesnt exist, just that with little research to corroborate the claims and typical institutional resistance to what is perceived to be a different / new, many practioners do not believe it has weight. Wilson has obviously had some success, but I suspect that the high doses proposed are probably not a necessity. I am however, not a thyroidologist by any means.

[quote]Caged wrote:
Bill, what’s your take on the rt3 theory? I know it isn’t a widely accepted theory in the medical community. Doesn’t it make sense that the t4 would have too much conversion to rt3, challenging the t3 for receptor sites making it somewhat detrimental?[/quote]

I really don’t have much of a take on it, being the sort of thing where the question is how important it is, which I haven’t studied.

What take I do have on it is that I doubt it is important for most individuals: it’s something that if it ever were a significant problem for a significant percentage of individuals you’d think evolution would have taken care of by now and certainly could have.

On the T2 aspect, while a straight T3 medication doesn’t directly provide it, deiodinases yield it in the body. It is possible – and I think it probably is the case – however that for given purposes, e.g. body composition goals, a higher ratio of T2 to T3 may be better than what results from taking only T3 or taking a thyroid extract product.