T Nation

T3 Advice for Mass/Strength Cycle

My stats:
age 33
wt 228@12-13% BF
years training 16
years on AAS 1.5

Next cycle:
100mg Tren Ace EOD
250mg Test E. E3D
A-dex or proviron if needed, same with Bromo

I recently had my blood work done and my Thyroid TSH level came back at 1.17, which from what I read is low. I have had a hell of a time keeping myself relatively lean and was thinking of including a low dose of 25-50mcg/day of T3 on my next Strength/Mass cycle in order to keep my gains leaner.

Has anyone had any experience with this? I have never taken T3 and I could find little research on long cycles at lower levels. I was thinking of taking it for the entire 8 weeks to keep my thyroid levels up since I will be using Fina and I know that tends to lower them.

Either that or do a short traditional cycle for the last 4-6 weeks. Has anyone tried this? How long did it take you to get your thyroid back in working order?

Hmm… i cant be sure but the suggestion that using T3 will kick start your own thyroid is a little like thinking a cycle of AAS will kickstart your HPTA. It wont, it replaces it is all.

You might want to try T4 as this actually stimulates the production of T3 in the body i believe. but i might be tempted to go to the doctor.

When docs prescribe T3 to patients with slow thyroids to ‘perk’ them up… it isnt for a short course, it is usually for long term replacement.

Is there a reason why your thyroid would be underactive at this point? Drugs, lifestyle, stress? Talk to the doc before you go self medicating for actual medical problems.

As for the cycle - why would you use Adex or Proviron? They are different drugs and not interchangeable.

What other cycles have you done in the past? What cycle patterns have you followed(12on,12off etc…)? What are your goals? BB or PL?

Thanks! :slight_smile:

I would be cautious in evaluating my thyroid efficiency soley by the TSH value. For example, I just got the following results:

TSH 1.18 on ref range of 0.4-4.5 mU/L
Free T3 4.4 on ref range of 2.8-7.1

To me the much more relevent value is the free T3 as that is the active form (much like free testosterone vs total testosterone).

Evaluating thyroid levels is a complex multi-faceted endeavor. Do you have any hypothyroid (low thyroid production) symptoms like lack of energy, constipation/slow metabolism, eyebrows that thin on the outer side, etc.

Don’t treat before you assess correctly.

[quote] Brook wrote:
Hmm… i cant be sure but the suggestion that using T3 will kick start your own thyroid is a little like thinking a cycle of AAS will kickstart your HPTA. It wont, it replaces it is all.

You might want to try T4 as this actually stimulates the production of T3 in the body i believe. but i might be tempted to go to the doctor.

When docs prescribe T3 to patients with slow thyroids to ‘perk’ them up… it isnt for a short course, it is usually for long term replacement.

Is there a reason why your thyroid would be underactive at this point? Drugs, lifestyle, stress? Talk to the doc before you go self medicating for actual medical problems.

As for the cycle - why would you use Adex or Proviron? They are different drugs and not interchangeable.

What other cycles have you done in the past? What cycle patterns have you followed(12on,12off etc…)? What are your goals? BB or PL?

Thanks! :)[/quote]

My thought was to use the T3 as a temporary boost while bulking to try to keep the gains lean. I’m getting some more tests done to see what my T3/T4 levels look like. In all honesty I am very hesitant to screw with T3 and probably will not…but it never hurts to get extra info from people who have used it.

I use Proviron for its ability to prevent test from converting to estrogen while also improving the amount of free circulating testosterone. I always prefer to use Proviron over A-dex or anything like it for those reasons, but due to cost its not always possible. Proviron also helps to keep your gains leaner and gives me a harder look.

I tried several cycles with some great success but in the end I decided to just stay on. I feel it is counter productive to come off for 12-16 weeks just to go back on. I do the “blast and cruise” thing. I will run a cycle for 8-16+ weeks then taper down to a TRT dose for an equal amount of time or more depending on my next powerlifting meet. I have friends who have done this for years, some managed to come off without issue, other are on TRT. I had low test before I began cycling and the doc wanted to put me on TRT anyway so I didn’t have much to lose.

[quote]Dynamo Hum wrote:
I would be cautious in evaluating my thyroid efficiency soley by the TSH value. For example, I just got the following results:

TSH 1.18 on ref range of 0.4-4.5 mU/L
Free T3 4.4 on ref range of 2.8-7.1

To me the much more relevent value is the free T3 as that is the active form (much like free testosterone vs total testosterone).

Evaluating thyroid levels is a complex multi-faceted endeavor. Do you have any hypothyroid (low thyroid production) symptoms like lack of energy, constipation/slow metabolism, eyebrows that thin on the outer side, etc.

Don’t treat before you assess correctly.[/quote]

Yea…I have some lab tests set up to evaluate that. It was my lack of energy (i’ll sleep 9 hours and still feel beat after 2 cups of coffee) and sluggish metabolism that first had me ask my doc about it but I am also always cold and have poor concentration and dry skin. But those could be symptoms of a million things including stress. So thats why I am waiting on the tests.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:

I use Proviron for its ability to prevent test from converting to estrogen while also improving the amount of free circulating testosterone. I always prefer to use Proviron over A-dex or anything like it for those reasons, but due to cost its not always possible. Proviron also helps to keep your gains leaner and gives me a harder look.

[/quote]

I am fully aware of the full range of effects and benefits of proviron, and why.
However i will stand by the point that in most cases it isnt to be used as a “one or the other” drug with Adex.
Proviron has some anti-aromatase properties granted. But it is not an AI. It is an AAS. It is a DHT based AAS actually, i actually believe it IS Methylated DHT.

Proviron will have nowhere near the effect needed on aromatase that adex(or other second gen AI’s) will, and as such is not sufficient to keep water, gyno and high estrogen at bay. It WILL help, but it isnt enough to reduce estrogen to the normal low levels alone.
It does make one grainy too, with a low enough bodyfat but this is due to it being a DHT based AAS - just as masteron and stanozolol can, and as other strong androgens will too - for example tren and halo. All of the above do not aromatize but not all have AI properties… Adex will reduce water more than proviron, yet proviron creates that grainy look more than adex. This must tell you that it is not just a question of low estrogen, but rather a question of low BF and high androgen too.
As for keeping gains leaner - this can only really be the fact it is a further androgen in a cycle, binding well to androgen receptors in adipose - stimulating fat burning to some degree.

Proviron will not make you drop the water from a test/drol cycle or from a deca/dbol cycle alone. Nor will it keep gyno at bay in strongly aromatizing cycles in anyone with what may be considered a normal aromatase/estrogen sensitivity. It can help in mild cycles however and It will add benefits and qualities to most cycles but it is to be generally used NOT as estrogen management but for its other benefits; Increasing libido, mood, drive and general androgenic plus’s with non-DHT cycles and SHBG binding strength. Even before second generation AI’s were so available it was commonplace for proviron to be used with Nolvadex when estrogen was needed to be controlled - and if one of the drugs was to be used alone it would have been the tamoxifen.

If you however, know that you are not sensitive to estrogen in aromatising cycles - then proviron will do just fine to offset a little extra aromatase. Although, sensitive to it or not in the mammory or in holding water - the estrogen will still be there and still have negative effects on your body and mind.

Brook

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Where did you get the idea that proviron was an effective aromatase inhibitor?

BBB[/quote]

I don’t think its an aromatase inhibitor, but has the same effect: www.steroid.com/Proviron.php There are other profiles that all suggest the dame effect. Never had any issues with gyno, water retention while using it.

Shit… all the collective years of intellectual human experience, learning and education we have collected and shared here in this particular forum have been foiled - by a steroid profile.

I am surprised that not one of us read a profile on Proviron by this point… weird…

We know it has those effect - properties. I already stated this.
BBB knows it does too - in exactly the same way that Masteron does. However it is not going to control estrogen sufficiently enough to be relied on alone.

You may never get gyno (i HIGHLY doubt that you have no water retention as even using adex or letro water is still apparent to a degree) - but it doesnt mean you have low estrogen.
Give it a little while and you will be cursing the day you ever assumed to know more than those who have spent years and years devoted to the use and exploration of these drugs in themselves and in others - simply because you read a drug profile. Well done you!

Sorry for the tone, but i find your ignorance and arrogance personally offensive.

Brook

[quote] Brook wrote:
Shit… all the collective years of intellectual human experience, learning and education we have collected and shared here in this particular forum have been foiled - by a steroid profile.

I am surprised that not one of us read a profile on Proviron by this point… weird…

We know it has those effect - properties. I already stated this.
BBB knows it does too - in exactly the same way that Masteron does. However it is not going to control estrogen sufficiently enough to be relied on alone.

You may never get gyno (i HIGHLY doubt that you have no water retention as even using adex or letro water is still apparent to a degree) - but it doesnt mean you have low estrogen.
Give it a little while and you will be cursing the day you ever assumed to know more than those who have spent years and years devoted to the use and exploration of these drugs in themselves and in others - simply because you read a drug profile. Well done you!

Sorry for the tone, but i find your ignorance and arrogance personally offensive.

Brook[/quote]

I’m not sure why that came off as arrogant…I just answered his question without rehashing what I have read and heard a hundred times over. Not sure why this offends you…if that info on Proviron is incorrect in any way I would love to know in what way it is.

I never had any issues with estrogen or water retention and I also know this is no guarantee that it will never be an issue, I don’t use more than about 650mg TE a week and 50-100mg ED Proviron seems to work with my body and that amount of Test. I also like its added benefits to body composition and to libido.

I know it is far less effective than A-dex or any number of other compounds but I never felt I needed more than this to effectively work with the dose of Test I am using. If I where to up that to the 750-1K range then I would certainly enlist something more potent than proviron.

I will say - your statement that you know that adex is much more effective, but that you dont feel that you need it is fair enough.
However, it is definitely healthier to keep estrogen levels within the normal male range during cycles, than allowing them to rise.
Proviron will not do this alone.

Thats all i was saying.

As for you being arrogant - it is simply your assumption that your reading of a dated profile page is more relevant to your use of AAS than real time, upto-date knowledge given by posters here. Posters that have quite a lot more experience in all aspects of the equation.

Also that you assume that because you dont grow tits - it means you wont benefit from using an AI… that you dont need one.
I am not saying that the only way for you to avoid growing breasts is to use an AI. That is obviously not true.
I know men who have used high doses of aromatizable AAS with no AI OR SERM even, yet have no gyno! But you can be t your bottom dollar that they (and you) will likely have problems with estrogen at some point.

BTW - dose of testosterone (for example) isnt a guarantee that one will need an AI or not. Everyone is different.
Where one may get gyno from 250mg/wk - another may get it from nothing less than 2000mg/wk.
Not only that but one may have less aromatisation than the next also.However, THIS is only possible to monitor with regular and consistent blood tests…

Brook

Brook,

For some reason my body responds poorly to aromatase inhibitors like A-dex. I started out taking a regular low dose of around .25mg EOD while on 500mg TE/wk. For some reason it made me feel jittery and spaced out, also I would get very dry flakey skin. I determined it was the adex when I stopped taking it and felt ok. Then started it up again with the same results. I tried several brands and this happens every time.

I have never had my estrogen levels tested and after reading your post that makes perfect sense. I will have to get them tested next time. I get regular blood work to keep an eye on the usual culprits like cholesterol, liver, etc. In terms of estrogen I normally go with how I feel and look. If my skin is looking thin and I’m not holding much subQ water I felt I was ok.

That is a strange reaction to be sure - however i am willing to be you arent the only one.

Maybe you have extremely low levels of aromatase naturally - so when an aggressive non-suicidal AI is introduced - even in low levels - it reduces aromatase to such a level then estrogen is non-existent.

Whatever works bud.

Brook

You could always try low dose letro in conjunction with extreme sensitivity male E2 blood panel results. Maybe Adex doesn’t agree with you. Bill Roberts asserts that side effects are more widely felt from Adex than Letro and thus recommends Letro over Adex.

KSman has found the ideal E2 result to be 20 (forget measurement units). He recommends adjusting dosage to target that number with libido and clarity of thought as the major corraborating indicators.

Brook also uses Letro.

I’ll read up on the Letro…sounds like it might be promising. It can’t hurt to try it. Either way I am curious to see what my Estrogen levels look like with and without. Thanks for the advice. I decided to skip the T3 btw…

I’ll read up on the Letro…sounds like it might be promising. It can’t hurt to try it. Either way I am curious to see what my Estrogen levels look like with and without. Thanks for the advice. I decided to skip the T3 btw…