T Nation

T, HCG ADX


#1

I am new to this and am under a DO's care that is a real advocate with a humble personality. He is a great dude. Almost tough to believe he is a DO. No slam, but you Doc's that are true pro's know what I am talking about.

Anyhew, we have been tweeking my T and ADX. Wre going to add HCG. Does the following regiment sound about right.
test 40mg eod
ADX .5 mg qd
hcg 250iu's once a week

Many peaks and valley's. Gyno, atrophy, mood swings, etc. My labs are good, minus the e2 at almost 50.
When I started the T, I was the king of the jungle. Now I am teetering. e2????? I was doing 1 mg qd of ADX when the gyno showed. We are backing down to .5 qd.

Thanks!


#2

Read the stickies....

What is qd?


#3

I have to take .5mg Arimidex daily to keep my E2 in check. I had dropped it from 1mg daily to .5mg daily, but now I am experiencing mood swings, sadness, etc. plus swollen ankles and exhaustion at night, so I am bumping it up to .75mg.

I had to drop it from 1mg to .5mg because I was having sever brain fog which lifted the week I dropped my dosage down, but now it seems like I passed through the sweet spot and am too high again.

It is all a delicate balancing act that is going to take time and experimentation to get it dialed in correctly. Just be patient. How long have you been on HRT?

have you had your Thyroid, Vit D levels, etc. checked out? They can have an impact on HRT and E2 levels.

Also the normal dose for HCG is 200-250iu EOD or E3D.


#4

All,

Sorry, I am not familiar with this site, so if my behavior is off, I apologize. Whats a sticky?

I have been on TRT since the beginning of the year. After about 3-4 months, the benefits subsided. We added ADX for the moobs that were/are sprouting and my E2 was almost 50. I am not sure what my BF is. I am not cut, but not well defined either.

The ADX was added. (It sounds dangerous.) My dose was 1 mg qd (every day). After a week of this, we dropped to 0.5 mg. This really caused my mood to change. A real valley of malaise. After a few days of the lower dose, I bumped back to 1 mg qd on my own. After a few days, I felt pretty good and the S/S of increased E2 subsided. (S/S = Signs and Symptoms)

We will be adding HCG 250 iu's q week.

We also opted to inject 40 mg of T every third day. With that, we are going to use 0.5 mg of ADX PO qd. (PO = By Mouth)

I dropped my ADX yesterday to 0.5 mg po and injected 40 mg. SURPRISE!!! The S/S of increased E2 are back. I have had other experiences with T and ADX and it appears I need 1 mg of ADX qd.

QUESTION
Do I ride out the .5 mg qd until my next labs to see if I my E2 is elevated or do I go by what I see and feel. If we go by what I see and feel, the E2 is up secondary to the injection.
My concern is all of the side efects of long term ADX use.

QUESTION
Are the side effects of ADX null and void because of the competetitive inhibition of the T and E2 doing battle? Or will the side effects be there regardless?

QUESTION
Do I use some other medication to address the E2 increase? I a not sure on names, but I know you experts have some insigt on this.

I now my body pretty well and can nail down certain things better tha most, but this is out of my league. Again, my DO is not afraid to practice, but he also knows his limits. If we cannot tweek this just right, I may just stop the T regiment and live life how I used to; Fat, tired, irritable, no drive, etc.

Thanks


#5

I am definitely not an expert - others here are.

but what I have learned is:

1) Stickies are the post at the top of this forum. They are stuck there so that they don't get buried under other posts - hence the nickname stickies or sticky.

2) I would go based on your symptoms, maybe try .75mg every day (which is what I am currently trying). What long term effect of Arimidex use?

3) I am not sure what side effects from ADX you are referring to. Arimidex interfers with the aromataze of testosterone to estrogen. The only side effects that I know of are the side effects of low estrogen if you take too much (low libido, mentally foggy, hurting joints, etc.)

4) 50mg Zinc may help stop the conversion of T to E or DHT. 4mg Copper is recommended to offset any copper lose that the extra zinc may cause. All of these can help with your general health and hormone balance/fucntion - Fish Oil, probiotics, CoQ10, Reverastal, Vitamin D 5,000iu-15,000iu, DHEA, Pregnenelone, Iron (if low). Most of this is in the stickies (i think).

Did you have your thyroid, ferritin, Vit D, cortisol, etc. checked? People that need HRT seem to have an above average number of problems in these areas. If you have other imbalances then it will be hard or impossible to zero in on your hormone balance as your other imbalances will keep throwing you off. It is best to test for everything and try to treat everything at the same time.

Stopping T after being on it for a couple of months would cause you to feel worse then you did before you started, because you have now shut down your own natural limited production of T and would more than likely crash and burn. I don't think that there is any good option to turn back once you start HRT (as far as I know).


#6

Basic protocol:

T+AI+hCG

100mg testosterone ester per week in divided doses.
1mg anastrozole per week in EOD/E2D divided doses
250iu hCG EOD/E2D

Anastrozole is a competitive drug and must be balanced with FT or bio-T levels. If you change your dose of T, you need to change your dose of anastrozole. The ratio of 1mg/week anastrozole per 100mg testosterone ester per week should be preserved as a starting dose consideration. Later the anastrozole dose is adjusted based on serum E2 levels.

If you are injecting hCG EOD, injecting T E3D is insane, inject T EOD as well.

hCG can increase E2 and T levels. This depends on the responsiveness of you testes - not predictable.

You need to have dosing steady for a few weeks before lab work so the lab numbers allow:

If you are taking 1.0mg/week anastrozole and you get E2=33pg/ml and the target level is E2=22ml, the new dose is the old dose X 33/22. Or 1.0 X 33/22 = 1.5

If you have your anastrozole dose refined and increase your T dose by 25%, if you increase anastrozole by 25%, your E2 levels should change very little.

You cannot fine tune your anastrozole dose with tablets or by breaking tablets into two or four pieces. This is where a liquid anastrozole formulation is needed. Typically a 1mg/ml solution. If a liquid product has 28 drops per ml, taking 8 drops EOD would be 1.0mg/week. Drops per ml varies with the carrier solution and the material that the dropper is made from - basic surface tension effects. Read and understand "anastrozole over-responder".

To inject 100mg/week T EOD, if 200mg/ml, inject 0.5ml/week / 3.5 injections /week = .143ml/injection. Have your doc simply script T dose per week and you can manage the EOD delivery your self. No need to have nice round numbers like 40mg. Inject with #29 0.5ml 0.5" insulin syringes [50iu]. Use same size syringe for hCG and T. Inject hCG SC. Inject T IM or SC. IM inject in vastus lateralis.


#7

Thanks!

ADX - I quartered my pills and have a varying sizes of the ADX. I gathered the dosing would be tough given they are 1 mg tablets and they are now varying doses of who knows what strength. What is the name of the liquid ADX? Is it easy to obtain? I like the concentration and ability to control dosing better with the luquid. I was thinking of liquifying and taking it PO. But again, how accurate can that be?

Hcg is a pain to recieve. Apparently, Pregnyl is on back order and is difficult to order. For the time being, I have to use a vial of 10,000 iu's. My DO says to start at 250 a week. to bump to the "Basic Protocol" should not cause any drama with my DO.

I am going to see a new MD the end of the month. Not a slam at my guy, he recommended I see another, more advanced practitioner. He says he knows his limits. A true professional he is!!! Only if more of us could have that servants heart.