I recently started the T-Dawg version 2 diet. I have a question regarding post-workout nutrition. What if there are 2 training sessions in a given day(weights and then sprint training)? Should I use 2 post-workout drinks and if so should I increase my allowable card limit or leave it at 100 g? Also would some sort of fat burner be used to aid if lack of energy presents itself?
Hi, Redman. Good question! My inclination (if the two were of roughly equal intensity and duration) would be to take one scoop of Surge (in a liter of water) with each of the two workouts.
However, it’s hard to hit the bulls eye when your blindfolded. Lay out your week, the duration of your workouts, the intensity, etc.
Sticking to the numbers given, you’ll probably be all right. But if after a week or two your workouts and/or performance really suffer, you may have no choice but to raise your carbs a bit or do what’s called a carb refeed.
Thanks for the advice Tampa-Terry I will give it a try and see how it works.
You’re most welcome, Redman. Actually, you’re in pretty good company. There are an awful lot of T-Nationers doing T-Dawg. Please let us know how it goes. And if you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask.
Redman… Tampa-Terry makes some good points. Carb repletion is critical for recovery. There’s been some debate among industry experts lately as to whether post-workout carbs are best for maximal fat loss, however. Although it depends on one’s goals, I argue that they’re always important. The logic of upping your carbs a bit is this: 1.) You’ll still likely be in negative energy balance on the diet 2.) The old adage “fat burns in a carbohydrate flame” refers to having enough stored glycogen to keep fat oxidation rolling 3.) Carbs can blunt catabolic hormones and immune factors 4.) If your peformance (strength/ speed) suffer within just a week or two, you’ll be losing ground.
And it’s best to stay aware that most stimulants impair carb storage (glucose tolerance/ glycogen synthesis) and could exacerbate losses of already-depleted muscle stores.
Hope this helps a little too…
TT…first off, an apology is in order. I’m very sorry, and I meant nothing harmful by anything that I posted. That was the last and least fathomable of my intentions. Please accept my most sincere regret:-) That said, let’s get down to business! This question by Redman was something that I was concerned with as well. I’ve been pondering over a low-carb diet–similar to what was discussed in the Charles Poliquin/David Boston thread a while back. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, but my question are a little more general at this time. In a similar case, if I were to perform both a resistance training session and an aerobic session (of intensity between 80-85% HRR) in the same day albeit in separate sessions, how might I go about nutrition afterwards? I was thinking that I would be keeping carbs low throughout the day, except post-training, so rather than consume a liquid beverage post-lifting, I would consume oats, low-carb GROW, and some whey (hydrolysates). After the cardio session, I figured that I would be okay to continue with the low-carb diet (i.e. whole-food protien, fibrous veggies and some added fat). Now, I haven’t worked the details much, but I’m still trying to fool around with some numbers. I’d also like to get some more feedback from you (not only directly but by reading your other quality posts) and from JC, who originally posted the diet he used ala Poliquin. I guess more than any answers at this time, TT, I’m just looking to give you a heads up of sorts. I shall post something in the near future as I iron out some wrinkles. To complicate matters and throw in a little twist, I plan on using this type of nutrition leading up to my first show, which is just over 12 weeks away. Thanks, TT:-)
Oh, dear, no, you haven’t said or done anything to offend me. I can’t even figure out what you would need to apologize for, so please don’t explain it to me. (grin)
And first off, before I start, I’d love to have you read up on Surge. There’s so much science behind it. Lonnie’s post above only scratches the surface. And you know how much of an advocate of low-carb dieting I am. Even though I try to keep carbs <30g per day, on days that I workout I’ll take in one scoop of Surge (a half serving). I come in a little higher than the <30g I shoot for, but I still consider it worth it from a recovery standpoint. It bears further research.
Okay, my thoughts on carbs on a post-workout split. I Surge after weight-bearing exercises, but not after cardio, though I do take in some carbs post-cardio. And we’re talking when you split the two, here. My logic is that with the cardio I’m only burning fat and using up glycogen stores. It’s post-weight-bearing-workout where there’s muscle damage that I want to bring catabolism to a halt and promote protein synthesis. That’s when and why I Surge.
Now, the reason that I recommended Redman Surge (at a half dose each time) after sprint training is that I’m guessing his training is not your typical HIIT 30-minute, 15-interval sprints, but rather (or maybe) something done in school, with a coach and a team; i.e., something of longer duration and more demanding than I do for the purposes of fat loss.
So if you’re going forward as you originally planned, with a low-carb approach, take in whatever carbs you’re going to take in at the two times your body is most receptive and insulin sensitive (i.e., break-fast and post-workout).
BTW, LC Grow, oats and the hydrolysate whey sounds like a yummy combo. Oats and LC Grow are a favorite of mine. Soooo good for the body!
There’s one book in particular I would recommend to you, Rob Faigin’s “Natural Hormonal Balance.” It’s all about protein, carbs, hormonal responses, dieting, minimizing the damage of insulin & cortisol (while dieting) and maximizing testosterone, GH, IGF-1, etc. I don’t agree with everything he says, and I haven’t incorporated everything he recommends, but lot of the precise numbers and data I share come from that book. He has two diets in the book. One is for the general population, whose goal is to drop BF. The other is a BB version, that I think you would find VERY interesting. It’s worth the read at $30 or so. Do a search on the title of the book. It’s only available online, not through Barnes & Noble, Amazon, or the like.
I’m confused–did one of your posts not get past the mods?
(Wipes the sweat off his brow)…Well, sure is nice to see that one slipped by. TT, while you (and dogchild) may not have noticed, my mishap was pointed out to me in the Pound. So, if you if you didn’t catch it, all the better–for the both of us (wink). On to business…TT, I’m quite fond of Surge and its founder. When JB was around, I was like his little pet. I still keep in close contact with him and greatly admire he and his work. It is my goal to do work that reciprocates quite closely to what JB does. Faigan’s book sounds rather interesting, particularly because I’d like to refine my knowledge base on the hormonal response to nutrition. Thanks for the heads-up.
For the time being (a little over 12 weeks out from ShowTime), my plan is such: During and Immediately post-workout, I’ll consume a Surge-like concoction, made up of 25g of dextrose/maltodextrin (50:50) with 25g of whey hydrolysates and 10g of glutamine. That’s 50g of each total for the two. An hour afterwards, I’ll consume a protein and carb meal. Prior to training (I train an hour after arising, as I can’t focus on the day’s events if I put it off longer), I’ll have a 1/2 cup of oats mixed with low-carb Grow. You’re right, that’s one Beautiful combo. So that’s the carbs pretty much for the day. I will be performing cardio in the evenings, and despite it being Fartlek/Interval style, I will not ingest a significant amount of carbs (only in the form of fibrous veggies). I think that’s the story for now. I thank you once again for your input and assistance. You’re a Gem, TT.
Hey there, Timbo. Your plan looks awfully tight. Bullet-proof, in fact.
The reason I recommended Faigin’s book is that the BB version of his diet is specifically designed for those who want to put on muscle and maintain their BF% or maybe even lose a little. For me, using the BB version and keeping a food log to ensure I was always SLIGHTLY hypocaloric seems to allow me to lose weight – specifically “lose body fat” – and I do seem to be adding muscle as well. Everybody’s dream, right?
There’s not a lot of support for the concept of low-carb diets (even with carb refeeds) for those who want to put on muscle. Rob Faigin is probably the closest you’re going to get in that regard. If you hit it hard, Timbo, I believe you could come in at that ultra-low BF% you want AND with a few more pounds of LBM to boot.
At one time, way back, I was on Atkins. I never left the first phase, the Induction Phase, I think they call it (20g of carbs per day). I GAINED WEIGHT!!! I have no doubt it was muscle I gained, but NOT the result I was looking for at that time. That’s why I’m looking forward to doing exactly what you’re doing. My goal is to put on lean muscle, while minimizing the fat gain that would typically go with bulking.
So I will be watching the process with GREAT interest, Timbo. You may be traveling an unbeaten path, but I’ll be RIGHT BEHIND YOU!!!
T? = Tampa-Terry…You likes, Terr? I thought so. I was thinking T2, but that just wouldn’t be right, since everyone would be thinking the Biotest supp. So, T? is the plan for now, so long as it floats your boat. I’m just too keen on nicknames and nomers to call peeps by their real names or handles. I need personalization and individuality, baby. Let’s get down to business, shall we?
I thank you much for your soldifying my plan. This makes me all the more confident, and I am now surpassing what I thought was Unstoppable Confidence.
That’s fantastic that you seem to be achieving the Holy Grail of Bodybuilding: Losing Fat and Building Muscle. Far too many are too impatient and/or too lazy to take the measures necessary. I give you great credit and love for being so committed, dedicated and disciplined in your efforts…on your Journey of Excellence.
If you ever get a chance, you should scope out those Skinny Bastard files in the forum that we have referred to previously. For a few years, I was in that same search as you…I was training to maintain ultra low levels of bodyfat (i.e. 3-4%) and simultaneously trying to pack on mass. Quite mistakenly, I tripped upon a great deal of muscle mass. I basically finally started feeding my body the nutrients it had been needing, and all it did was build muscle. You know, kinda like how whenever Mike Alstott scores a touchdown, the guys on ESPN Primetime say: “Mike Alstott (sound effects), all he does is score Touchdowns.” (Not this Sunday though–grin). However, I think that with such a close watch over your nutrition (i.e. the food log) and regular assessments and adjustments, your goal WILL be achieved. I have no doubt actually.
I see that you go the low-carb route. I’m glad that you implement the refeeds occassionally, because this is one thing that I think holds merit for the dieter.
And fear not, T?, I shall not give up and I’ll continue the fight, especially with support from my peeps like you and the others. It’s just Beautiful to have so much backing. Tomorrow marks twelve weeks out, so it’s definitely game time.
Finally, T?, I hope that you learn just as much as I do from this journey of mine. And, as you follow my self-proclaimed Unbeaten Path from behind, I’m SURE you’ll rather enjoy the view (grin).
TT and Company…I see that my intentions were not conveyed properly in the latter message. What appears as a question mark (i.e. “?”) is actually supposed to be a “2” and appear as a “square.” What I was trying to get across was that the name I had come up with was “T-Squared” not “T?” Well, now that previous post looks rather goofy, but I’ll try to fix that up. I rather like the “T-Squared” idea, but it looks cooler with a 2 up there:-)
Timbo, T squared works, but methinks it should probably be “T to the power of x,” with x, the unknown variable representing all the many of T-Nation that have supported ME, answered MY questions and asked questions that caused me to stretch and expand my knowledge base. What many don’t realize is I owe the T-Nation a great debt.
Bottom line on the moniker? You and everyone else are free to call me just 'bout anything you want to. Just don’t call me late to the celebratory dinner when the Bucs kick those Raider’s butts. (grin)
Uh-oh…you just had to go there, didn’t ya, T^2? You KNOW I’m not only part of the T-Nation, but part of THE Raider Nation. You might want to have some backup plans…(grin).
I’m glad you feel that way, Terr. That’s Quality, you know. I had been away from this forum for a little bit, after being a T-Scrub (kinda like a gym rat) forever. Now, I know why I came back and why I’ll never leave again. It’s peeps like you, TT, and the rest of the Nation (the T-Nation, that is) that keep me rollin’.
And fear not, Terr, we’ll continue to press you and push you. Oh, I decided to order Faigin’s book. Looks interesting and will give me a brief hiatus from the Grad school readings.