T Nation

T-Dawg v2 for muscle gain?


#1

Is it possible to gain LBM while on the T-Dawg diet? Or should I switch to a different diet to try to gain LBM?


#2

I've had several friends use HotRoxx and actually gain a pound or two of muscle while doing TDawg. HotRoxx is awesome at helping retain muscle during a cutting phase.

You could also add either some 4AD, or Mathoxy and Tribex, and that will defenitely help you out.

Just don't expect much more than a pound or two I would guess.


#3

Probably possible, but DEFINITELY not the easiest or most efficient way.


#4

Yes it is possible, and here I am.

Been doing it 2 months, and have gained 8 pounds of lbm, while losing 14 pounds of fat.

Do realize though that to accomplish that you would need some fat in the first place, I was ~17%. And you need refeed's, especially after a month or so. In the first month I really only gained a few pounds of LBM, it wasn't till the later time when I started to refeed/overfeed more than once per week that I gained more lbm. Actually one week I did about 3 days worth of overfeeds.

So I guess I "technically" might not be on a perfectly strict tdawg 2.0, but I really don't care what you call it, it has worked well for me.
Lifts all went up also, so did some measurements of previously lean areas (like neck), and measurements of fatty areas of course went down (like waist).


#5

Great job, A.L.!

I, too, am living proof LBM can be gained on T-Dawg V.2, and not just a pound or two.

During the Hot-Rox Contest, I was on the diet and didn't even use Hot-Rox until the last few weeks and lost 17 pounds of fat and gained 9 pounds of muscle, as measured using a 3-site skinfold.

It can be done, and it was much easier than I had imagined.

If you want details of my particular transformation, do a search for "Late Entry! mamann's transformation"


#6

Alright Thunder, what would be your recommendations (diet and workout) to gain LBM?


#7

mg
you could continue along the lines of t-dawg, but increase cals accordingly and allow carbs to go up to say 150 per day.
ofcourse this is starting to sound more like a massive eating guidelines so maybe you could check that out, and just transition into that away of eating


#8

Whenever I bulk on high carbs (even with androgens), I ended up gaining way too much fat. More fat than muscle. I'm not very carb tolerant but have always tried different ways of bulking with high carbs. The whole Mag 10 plan to success just puts fat on me. So I decided to try a more t-dawg style diet while bulking with MAg 10. I gained 14lbs in 2 weeks with about 1-1.5lbs of fat. With high carbs I gained 12lbs with about 7-8lbs from fat. I did make some adjustments. My workout days included 200 grams of carbs (most coming post workout which included surge and meal 1 hour after workout). Non workout days had 100 grams of carbs which mostly came from veggies and other fibrous carbs. I never wanted to take the chance because everywhere i went people said you can't gain weight without carbs, you need lots and lots of carbs! So naturally i didn't want to let my money go to waste. Well i took my chances and they turned out great!


#9

150 grams is not starting to sound like Massive Eating guidelines.

I'm sorry but low carb eating for muscle gain is just not the way to go; unless of course you're in absolutely no rush to make any gains.

Look around your gym. How many people actually look different this year as opposed to last. Granted, this is from a number of reasons, but the majority if gym rats are all over this low carb wagon and are trying to gain size. Stop it.

Eat some carbs, eat lots, make very wise and safe carb choices, and grow some muscle. That's not an excuse to get sloppy, but if you put on a few pounds of fat, big deal. Muscle growth is hard; fat loss is very easy.

mg, my recommendations for diet and workout? Dude, that is a LOADED question. You've got a huge resource for training ideas here already. Play with it. Do 4-6 weeks of some heavy, strength training like Joel's new program and then do something completely opposite like GVT or something. Even after a stint with just these two programs, you'll have a better idea of what type of training your body responds best to.

Diet? Eat!!!

(one)


#10

Fat loss is easy? Man, I just finished up my 3rd week of the T-Dawg v2 and I gained 1% in bodyfat!

What the hell?


#11

I like Krystians approach. A low carb diet will tend to naturally cause insulin resistance. Being insulin resistant in fat cells is advantageous. Working out selectively increases insulin sensitivity in muscle cells. So if the normal daily diet is causing insulin resistance in both fat and muscle cells but we temporarily upgrade the insulin sensitivity in muscles by working out and then taking advantage of this by bombarding the muscles with carbs after a workout perhaps there is a lot to gain in the way of positive partitioning.


#12

No you didn't.

And if you did gained 1% body fat in 3 weeks on that diet, you were simply eating too much.

Maybe you'd be better off with a diet with more carbs in it. I personally never drop below 100g on a diet these days.


#13

I would think that if you gained lbm during a dieting cycle then you are either a newbie or entered the diet in an untrained state. I don't think it's possible to gain muscle when cutting calories if you are sticking to the t-dawg as written. Now things could be different if you are doing something like Joel's CD/EDT diet.


#14

I agree with Thunder and JasonL.

I'm on the T-Dawg diet (week 3 also) and I believe the only reason I gained 1 lb in lean body weight and a slight increase in strength is because I'm a beginner.

During the first week, I actually gained 2 pounds of fat because I consumed way too many calories. Just because I only consumed 70-100g of carbs, it didn't give me a license to pig out on chicken, beef, and pork. Which is exactly why it is outlined in the T-Dawg Diet that calories still count.

I would suggest you follow the calorie guidelines of T-Dawg.


#15

I wouldn't think you would really have had to have been in an untrained state -- a "less trained" state could be enough. When some people go on a diet like T-Dawg, they are probably changing other variables (like their workout) at the same time. Maybe they were spotty on workout consistency before or weren't having good, challenging workouts. I don't see why changing those things wouldn't inspire muscles to grow regardless of diet. (Plus people are probably cheating on the carbs sometimes even when they're not doing refeeds.)

There's a lot of normal, individual variation on what the conventional wisdom says is possible. I don't think you can ever really say "always" or "never" with great certainty when it comes to diet. I do agree with Thunder that it's probably not the best approach, though.


#16

I did follow the guidelines which is why I don't understand what happened...


#17

I'm kinda interested as to whom to credit the Newbie Hypothesis. I just think it's kinda funny how we hear this over and again.

An individual claims that he/she put on fat-free mass whilst simultaneously dropping fat mass, and someone discredits those accomplishments accrediting those significant changes in body composition to "newbie" status. I love it!

Surely, if we look at the literature, during the first two months of strength training, the trainee is going to get stronger. However, these changes in strength are indepedent of changes in muscle hypertrophy (i.e. addition of fat-free mass). Unless this same individual is following a solid, hypocaloric diet, it's unlikely that he/she is going to drop bodyfat.

Therefore, my point is to not discredit an individual or place a scarlet letter (i.e. an N for newbie) on him/her because he/she is making progress. Congratulate him/her and help him/her continue to make progress.

Now, if a person is detrained for a relatively short duration of time and returning to the game, that may be a different story...


#18

I'm no beginner and I've put on lbm while cutting every year for the past three years. It's never very much but it happens. Last month, I lost 6 lbs of fat while putting on 2 lbs of lbm. I don't go low carb. My carbs hardly ever get below 160 grams per day while consuming on average about 1925 calories per day. I also do very little cardio... just one or two 20 minute sessions on the elliptical machine per week or jumping rope for 12 minutes in 3 minute drills. I weigh about 161 right now but my damn shoulder is bothering me again so it's been an easy week of only doing leg work. Sigh...


#19

My newbie theory (This is probably 100% wrong):

Protein absorption rates vary. A 90 year old woman probably doesn't have the same protein absorption rate as a 20 year old male. That said, not every 20 year old male has the same absorption rate i.e. a fat bastard probably doesn't have the same rate as someone who's been bodybuilding for 2 years.

Now, since it is possible that protein is under utilized in sedentary\untrained\"trained a little but was pretty inconsistent," these people can lose fat and pack on LBM at the same time. Afterall, they're possibly increasing protein degradation with their training.

But after a while (maybe 1 or 2 months or maybe 6 months), their bodies adapt. They can utilize protein more efficiently now. But with limited calories comes limited protein. So, how can they pack on more muscle if they only have material that's enough for maintenance?

You cannot make additions to a house without materials, unless you can make it magically appear. :wink: You might argue that you can rearrange the furnitures of your house, but in reality you can't get some of your gluteus maximus to add inches to your baby biceps.


The theory can be all wrong, that's why its a theory and not a law. However, I believe that you should use the right tool for the job.

If you want to lose fat, then why not go on a cutting\fat loss diet? If you want to gain mass, why not use a mass-gaining diet?

If you want to lose and gain, why not cycle the diets instead of following a very loose version of a fat-loss diet?


#20

My point was not to discredit anyone's gains. My point was to say that is very unlikely that one will put on a "significant" amount of lbm on a hypocaloric diet. The poster asked the question about whether the t-dawg is a good diet for gaining lbm. If you follow the t-dawg as is then you will probably not put on any significant amount of lbm. I think that most here will agree with me that to put on muscle you have to eat over maintenance and not 500 calories less than maintenance like the t-dawg.