T Cream 60mg/Day - Good Dose? How Much Will T Increase?

Dont go for the argue but that is not entirely true. In sufficient time the body will deteriorate yes, but definitely t is not a life supporting hormone like cortisol for example. Men men live with almost zero testosterone due to one reason or another

1 Like

Quality of life vs quantity of life. Longevity vs performance. Please level set your consistent exaggeration and simplification against the relevant literature.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(12)00712-9

The idea of running your testosterone as high as you need to “feel good” and no repercussions not consistent with what is known of human physiology. There is usually a tradeoff.

Real quick: Do not edit your initial post, change the thread title so drastically, or remove what was previously there. It screws up the entire thread and makes any previous replies pointless.

Simply reply to the thread with new info, like your bloodwork.

Interesting study above, but many of the benefits cited are from men getting their nuts cut off at childhood (castration). There are also contradictory points in the study that the authors fairly point out, aside from having small control groups from the 1500-1800’s and 1920’s era, which include:

“One reason for the gender [age] gap is that men are more prone to cardiovascular disease , and though it has been suggested that androgens contribute to this, much evidence argues against this. For example, a recent meta-analysis of 70 studies showed an association between low testosterone levels and increased risk of cardiovascular disease […] Thus, testosterone promotes aging in at least one organ (the prostate) but not in several others (e.g. the cardiovascular system, the musculature), but there is evidence that removal of testes can extend overall lifespan, at least in some settings”.

The authors go on to question:

“One possibility is that testicular factors other than androgens play a role in the control of aging. Another is that androgen depletion from childhood or early adulthood is beneficial, but androgen depletion initiated in later life is largely detrimental.”

I did not get from this that higher testosterone levels were necessarily bad, but maybe the verdict is still out as to whether they are necessarily good. The transgender lifespan stuff with women changing to men (via TRT) could probably be interesting but wouldn’t apply entirely to us males…

Btw, the polygamy stuff in the study was fantastic lol…

Thanks for taking a look. Very nice summary and like most charts, it appears most likely U-shaped for testosterone (x-axis) vs maximizing compression of morbidity if not for longevity. Glad you enjoyed the second paper. Always gives me a warm feeling to know there’s people on here who read and think critically. Take care.

I guess i could say it differently, but i still belive that someone without T will die an early age. Unless they are kept alive forcefully with a bunch of pills and shit. Stints, pills, and god knows what other surgeries.

Men with zero testostrone are older and dying. Young men cannot function, if they stay at low t they will have high blood pressure, heart attack, diabetees and a bunch of other shit.

They will be put on pills to compensate and keep them alive.

Without T we are dead. it gives men their snap and life.

You really dont give it enough credit friend.

Exaggeration and you cite on pubmed on a topic from the medical community that is biased as F and paid off by the pharma industry? A statement produced by some of the top medical professionals in the medical study industry?

We must both look at life differently. When i say alive, i mean functioning and mostly healthy.

You do realize that so many diseases and illnesses today could be prevented if a man had healthy levels of hormones. Woman would sidestep so many issues as well with a proper level of hormones.

Without T = no muscle, insulin, diabetes, bones become brittle as fuck, you do not have a health heart, your lipids go bunk, your skin deteriorates, your mental states deteriorates. Depression, anxiety, anti social. Its all a matter of time and every single thing i just write will happen, or youll die an old age with all of these issues. What kind of a healthy person has these issues? You call that life? A shell of a man.

Ive head from some docs that men are reversing their diabetes with TRT. They are fixing blood pressure, lipids and so many other issues that are associated with a high risk of CV issues. Including pure depression, which will eventually drive you to either kill yourself or hide in a shell for the rest of your life until your ass is dead.

Yes T is an extremely important hormone to stay alive. WIthout it you might as well keel over and die.

I had 3.5 free t and 185 total at 35. I felt like i was dead. I couldn’t wake up in the morning, i could not function, i could not speak with people and do my job/run my business…

Maybe ill ammend my comment and say “Hormones” , which includes T.

Do you guys have any idea what might have caused my testosterone to go so low and just a year after it’s back up? I never took any testosterone.

I went to see a doctor that specializes in hormones and talked to him about SSRI’s and he said that they might have fucked my hormones and that now after all these years my body is slowly healing again and testosterone is coming back.

It went from 300 to 200 in 3 years and then to 500 in 1 year.

Maybe I should still get T? I’m lost. I might do some more blood work but maybe in a month or so. My mental is slowly coming back to normal, which I assume if it wasn’t for low testosterone was due to my relationship being toxic for a while and my brain was shutting down due to the constant fighting and toxicity.

Doctor also prescribed me Vitamin D3, A, E, K2 and B complex. Was also prescribed by a second doctor DHEA, Vitamin C, D, selenium, melatonin to regulate my shitty sleep schedule and some other stuff I can’t decipher.

I’m lost.

Possible

Hey, man. I’m actually in a similar boat. Since taking antidepressants (Fluoxetine in late 2016), my sexual function has been horrendous - ED, dead libido, no morning wood, anhedonia, etc. It’s likely some form of PSSD you’re experiencing, unfortunately.

I’ve tried lots of drugs and supplements with few favorable results. The light test boosters (naltrexone, boron, tribulus, etc.) seemed to help the most, so I figured my problem was probably hormonal in nature.

I’ve had extreme fluctuations in my hormones as well, from total T of under 300 to total T of ~700. My free T also naturally tripled within a matter of several months. In spite of these changes, while I felt better with higher hormones, I didn’t feel close to my pre-PSSD state.

Last I checked, my total T is around 600 [~300-900] now, with free T about 17 [8-29].

In spite of being “in range,” it’s obvious there are hormonal problems. Either we had higher T levels before treatment, the receptors are less responsive, gene expression may be reduced through the methylation of AR/ER gene promoters, or some combination thereof.

I know @dextermorgan took antidepressants when he was younger, and in spite having decent numbers on paper, he still had many symptoms of low T. He’s felt immensely better since starting high-dose TRT. I believe he’s on about 200 mg/wk.

Given that those even in the normal range can see vast improvements, I’m going to begin TRT therapy as soon as I iron out the few remaining kinks. I plan to start at a dose between 150mg-200mg/wk in 3 divided doses of test cyp. No AIs or HCG.

I’ll create a log and keep you guys updated with the progress. Best of luck!

Did you quite cold turkey?
What other supplements did you take?
I fortunately don’t suffer from anhedonia, I still feel stuff, albeit maybe it’s because I’m older than when I was when I started taking pills, I feel more empathetic towards people and stuff that happens in the world. I still laugh and can taste food as before.
I had a few toxic weeks/months with my girlfriend and I think that fucked my mental up, but I’m slowly recovering.

One thing I noticed in my libido/erections was that when I met my girlfriend a few years back, my libido was way better, erections were ok, not 100%, but everything was better. I was feeling shit a lot, maybe it was the dopamine rush of meeting someone new, so everything was working as it should. A few months after everything was worse.

When I met my girlfriend I wasn’t 100% in my sexual health, but everything just worked right when I was with her so I just brushed it off.

It sucks now because I’m noticing that everything I was feeling before meeting her is still here making me more depressed because it isn’t going away.

Hopefully one day I will wake up better.

I was thinking of just doing TRT anyway before I couldn’t possibly feel worse than I am right now, but I don’t want to fuck me up even more.

hve you ever tried Tongkat Ali for free T? It seems to not affect Total, but maybe on free T it will be useful.

When you’re ready to start TRT email me. My doc will prescribe you even at normal levels of you are experiencing issues that warrant it (my total T was 575). You’ll have a hard time finding a doc willing to prescribe you. My doc charges $150/month which includes the T shipped to your door (220mg/week), syringes,etc.

3 Likes

You mentioned a too long story for this post regards neurotransmitter receptors, I’m curious and would like to learn more about it if you want to share it here or privately.

I’ve been medicated paroxetine and fluvoxamine for OCD, I’ve switch from paroxetine to fluvoxamine due to sexual side effects and then I stopped not cold turkey but close. I went from 100mg to 50mg and then 0mg, from what I’ve read it should have been in increments of 10mg. Hopefully with supplements, a good sleep schedule as I’ve been sleeping during the day or just having fucked up sleep schedules for the past 10 years due to working from home, exercise which I don’t do it often and a better diet which from 2015 onwards consists of fast food, soda and alcohol.

You mentioned Hypericum, is that St. Johns Wort? I’ve been reading about it and I’ve read that it helped some people with the same issues I’m having due to SSRI’s. Do you not recommend it? I’m willing to take anything combined that I won’t get worse than I am already. Also, what are the differences on how hypericum acts in comparison to a SSRI? If it was the SSRI that fucked me, how come hypericum that also acts on serotonin won’t have a negative effect on me?

You mention libido is back, but what about erection quality? Did it also improve? Orgasm quality?

How long have you been running this supplement stack?

A doctor I went to, the same that prescribed me testosterone, prescribed me a few supplements (picture here), can’t really discern the handwriting and with those there’s DHEA 50mg in the morning, I’m 28, isn’t that way too much compared to your 10mg? She also prescribed Vitamin C, D, etc. If anyone can decipher would be great.

I’m baffled by what I was reading just now in regards to St. Johns Wort, this fucking plant is as effective as paroxetine in treating low level depression and with less side effects, how the fuck wasn’t I given this in 2014? More studies are only coming out now (2017 to 2019) but holy shit SSRI’s are fucking so much with peoples lives when more “natural” shit is around. Is this the big pharma meme all over again?

And not I never tried any supplements, I don’t know Tongkat Ali. I’m afraid of taking supplements to try to help my sexual issues and just end up fucking it even more. I can still have erections with physical contact with my girlfriend, sometimes they go down quickly sometimes they don’t so I’d still like to atleast not lose what I have now. Only improve from here.

Are you portuguese/spanish? Your username has similar words to those languages.

How much are you paying for everything monthly? Sorry for all these questions, I just want to be helped and be healthy again.

Unfortunately I’m not in the US. How was your experience with SSRI’s? Is there a thread I can read about it?

But if my testosterone is at healthy levels shouldn’t this be a problem with neurotransmitters fucking up the connection between my testicles and my brain in regards to libido and erections?

Ok, if it help I will start a new topic focused on this side of the moon, giving more details about my experience and answering other doubts. I’ve tried to be detailed in the message because the question is complicated, hormones and neurotransmitters interact strictly, because they are the same thing with a different name. The main point is that sexual functions are not modulated only by testosterone, but by the interaction of several neurotransmitters/hormones (mainly testosterone/estradiol, cortisol, serotonin and dopamine). Modulating testosterone alone can certanly cure the symptoms, masking other issues even if the symptoms are not caused by testosterone. It can be the easiest approach for you and for your doctor, so I would not try to convince you to try another approach. However, I cannot avoid to say what I would do in your case, but I warn you that I am fond of complicated approaches.

Because I realize I’ve written another too long post (sorry, I did not realize it until I finished), I’m going straight to practical suggestion (and you should note that it is my personal view, not a medical one).

/* my personal view */

What I would do in your situation? Well, if I was still on medication ( i didn’t understand if you’re taking them again) I would try to safely stop them, switching to a more manageble alternative and only after that I will try to increase sexual functions. I would speak to my doctor about curcumin and inotisol to begin with, given that these are two substances that have been compared to antidepressants in the studies. I think it would be safe to switch from SSRIs to curcumin (usually it is used at 1000mg a day), taking into consideration my medication half-life to not have bad interactions, and at the same time start inositol from 6g and increasing it to at least 12g (over 12g is a matter of comfort with intestinal side effects, but it can be increased to 18g). Yes, curcumin “seems” to increase serotonin, but hardly as much as SSRIs do, and even if it is the case, curcumin does not downregulates serotonin receptors as SSRIs but even upregulate them, (I use hypericum for the same goal, but I perceive it as a more difficult substance to manage). Inositol (12-18g) is one of the messenger that mediates the effect of serotonin (and SSRIs) and it upregulates dopamine receptors (which are good for libido) without serotonin side effects.
After a period of assessment I would give testosterone and erection boosters a try before starting TRT. Icariin would be in my opinion the only herb worth trying, but given its NO boosting effects (which in turn decreases serotonin) it can exacerbate OCD. But if my priority is sexual function recovery I would try it considering the risks, without dropping the other supplements. Again, results of herbal supplements like this are not 100% predictable, because we are in the experimentation field. Icariin has a long history of use for sexual improvement, but as for testosterone enhancement I only found a study on rats. However that study is very, very exciting, because in it Icariin doubles testosterone levels, increasing testicular functions at a dosage of around 900mg for an 80kg man (over-supplementing has instead a detrimental effect). Well, for a person with OCD it can have some risks. So to be safe I would not only continue to use curcumin and inositol, but also add some cheap (compared them to icariin they are really cheap :)) supplement with proven benefits, like acetylcysteine (1200mg 2-3 times a day) and theanine (200-250mg 2-3 times a day).

If I was not on antidepressants I would use the same supplements, but with a different order: given that my priority is on sexual functions, I would start immediatly icariin, acetylcysteine, theanine and inositol, and if I need it (due to OCD symptoms exacerbation) or if I want to be scrupulous on my brain homeostasis recovery, I would start curcumin or another anti-OCD substance that boost serotonin safer than SSRIs (always with medical supervision, keeping in mind that they are drugs). So at least I can boost testosterone (good for sex), nitric oxide (good for sex) and have a zero effect on serotonin.

About hypericum: yes it is the same as St. Johns Wort. I use it at low dosage (with other substances that can increase serotonin) and, assuming that I’m lowering serotonin with Icariin, it could not have increased serotonin in my case. Whatever the mechanism by which it increases serotonin, if the dosage is such as high to boost serotonin by the same amount of SSRIs, it could potentially have the same effects on sexual function. At least during treatment. So don’t fool yourself that it may have no effect on sexual functions, it can as all other serotonin booster!
The advantage of these non-SSRIs substances that increases serotonin (curcumin, hypericum and bacopa) is not that they do not have sexual side effects during treatment (in fact they can!), but is that they regulates (by not so clear mechanisms) serotonin receptors in a good way, so that when you stop taking them, your brain is not fucked like Hiroshima, and you can recover quickly But herbs, and in this case Hypericum, do not selectively impact serotonin alone, but also other neurotransmitters, like GABA, dopamine and others, so you have to be careful.

/* your supplements */

As for your supplements, DHEA is certainly too high, you should check it with blood test to find the right dosage for you, given that at high dosage it can be converted to testosterone and estrogen with all related side effects, but for a 28 year old male even 10mg could bring levels to the upper limit, been preferentially converted to DHT (good for sexual function) without testosterone conversion.
I cannot understand what is the second one at 100mg.
The others are antioxidants and taking them to be sure of not having deficiencies is a good idea, given their role in general health and testicular function. However, since these type of substances have an inverted U shape response, and increasing dosages have detrimental effects, be sure of not take much more than the suggested dosage. You have to add vitamin K to vitamin D, because the latter with deplete the first and can have side effects, and personally, if I want to stick to the minmum required dose I would use 2500 instead of 5000 U. Daily requirement of vitamin C (which is 90mg) can be easly ingested with 1-2 kiwi fruit and if you have not tested dificiencies I do not see why to use a superior dosage. Selenium is on the safe side of dosage as it should be, given that it easly go from low to toxic range with supplementation. Even zinc is on the safe side, since it can easily be toxic (I suggest to use it far from sleep).
Perhaps resveratrol has been suggested for its capacity of stimulate nitric oxide (that improve erection), but I do not know this substance.
About nitric oxide: all NO booster can exacerbate OCD symptoms and many (like arginine) can even cause depression and anxiety. I do not remember why or what studies I read about, but many years ago I was convinced that citrulline has not the same deleterious effects on mood as arginine, even if they are related, but I do not remember where this belief comes from. As I said Icariin has NO and T boosting properties, it has demonstrated anti-anxiety and antidepressant effects in animals, but I’m afraid it could exacerbate OCD (so be careful).
I would also suggest of speaking with your doctor about acetyl-l-carnitine at low dosages (500-750mg), it could be at the insersection between sexual dysfunction and mood treatment.

/* my current experience */

I drop the antidepressants cocktail i was on the last year for other reasons than sexual sides ( which I cannot afford to worry about given my condition), but in a few days not only libido is increased, even pleasure, erection, orgasm feeling and power: I seems an horny teens again (but I have only practiced masturbation these days, so I do not know what real sex performance could be). I have a worse hormonal profile than yours, but probably you have used antidepressants for a much longer period of time and even if I have used a more powerful combination, I’ve used some tricks to not fuck the homeostasis of my neurotransmitters even during prescribed treatment, so I don’t want to deceive you that by copying what I did your condition will improve just as quickly.

Some other facts could be the cause of this fast recovery and not only just having dropped and switched antidepressants: for months I’ve tried to upregulate dopamine receptors and opioid receptors, even before this protocol. So dropping serotonin levels and using T boosters may have had some sort of rebound effect on sexual function, than will stabilize in the next days (after 20 days I no longer feel like an erupting volcano ready to copulate even with holes in electrical outlets like the first few days, but I feel just ok and have spontaneous erections easily).

/* conclusions */

The main message I have tried to communicate is that “it’s not all about testosterone”: antidepressants destroy sexual acitvity even without effect on testosterone, because a particular function is always regulated by a lot of system that interact to each other in a contrasting or additive manner. Keep in mind that hormones and neurotransmitter are the same thing, that serotonin and testosterone interact a lot and that some testosterone effects are mediated by its effect on other neurotransmitters (mainly serotonin and dopamine) so that we cannot say were the effect of one stop and the effect of the other start. Yes, increasing T could mask some (or a lot, we do not know) of the sides effect of antidepressants, but being more careful about antidepressant use, and choosing the right ones according to the sides we want to avoid and even trying to use some substances to restore the brain balance broken by them, can reduce the need of TRT and complement it to have better and more safe response.

I’m not against TRT, but before starting it i would bother to stabilize the antidepressants use and trying to repair damage caused by them (which I insist, is not all about testosterone). Even if you are no more on SSRIs, it would not be a bad idea to start using some supplements for a limited period of time, indipendently of sexual symptoms, but only to restore serotonin system equilibrium.

If you suffer of OCD, keep in mind that some of the substances I’ve mentioned in my stack could not be useful for the condition or (at least in theory) have a deleterious effect on OCD symptoms: I’m speaking about tianeptine and icariin that I use to drop serotonin levels. All of others can be used to manage both depression and OCD symptoms. In particular there are acetylcysteine, theanine and cinnamon, that have a very nice usefulness to price ratio and complement each other targeting the same system (mpfc) that is a brain structure involved in really all mental illness. Not only their are cheap, but they are powerful nootropic with effects on OCD, depression, anxiety and schizophrenia.

In general “natural” substances are not safer than synthetic ones: they are less predictable and are potentially more risky, because they are not very selective, interact with many systems and are less studied than synthetic treatments, so it is even more important to know their functioning and your health conditions. But by informing yourself well and using them under the supervision of your doctor they can be used very effectively, also because, while it is easy to find a natural substitute for a drug substance, it is not always easy to find a drug substitute for a natural substance.

I’m on this stack since about 20 days. I do not have calculated the monthly cost (I think about 350€ or more), as I planned to use it as an antidepressant recovery strategy for a limited period of time (1-2 months), waiting for another type of therapy that will require a responsive serotonin system. My nickname is a spanish word, but I’m 100% Italian.

Oh, to top it off, I’ve simplified the issue of SSRI damage recovery a little bit: repairing the receptors is the first thing for me, but that’s not necessarily the only thing. SSRIs likely alter the dopamine system as well, and although you can intervene there too, I don’t recommend it at all, because it’s a much riskier game.

As the question of the interaction between SSRIs and dopamine has been raised here, I would like to point out that there are several substances that increase dopamine while stimulating fertility and endogenous testosterone production. The most famous is mucuna pruriens.
Animal study:

Human study:

I have personally used it with a lot of precaution, but I am afraid to recommend its use to other people

Increasing dopamine by taking substances (even hypericum seems to do so) has its problems and can be dangerous, as the dopamine system is even more delicate than the serotonin one. The use of inositol can be protective on the development of tolerance of dopaminergic substances by increasing the number of D2 receptors, while acetylcysteine (as other glutamate antagonists) ​​is useful due to the modulation of glutamate. The only other strategy I know of to not develop tolerance to dopamine (and which I use), but which is potentially even more dangerous given the possible risk of tardive dyskinesia, is the use of antipsychotics in Ultra Low Dose, but here we really are at the level of experimental hypotheses of which no one can know the outcome.

All I can tell you is… No one really knows and anyone that acts like they do probably knows less. Testosterone basically does what antidepressants claimed to do (for me at least). It’s not like drugs where you just feel amazing 24/7 but it does give me a constant state of not feeling bad (unless outside circumstances cause it). It’s helped libido,erections, etc tremendously. 185mg is the dose where i get all of that. Less than 185mg gives very minimal positive effects.

1 Like

I’ve used SSRI’s from 2014 on and off, started with paroxetine, doctor retired, didn’t fill my prescriptions, then went with fluvoxamine and then stopped them in 2016 or 2017. Didn’t cold turkey, but went from fluvoxamine 150mg a day, to something like 50mg and then 0mg in the span of a few weeks, I didn’t know any better, was never accompanied by the psychiatrist. I was just feeling bad when taking the pills, was feeling nauseated, so I stopped, and I wasn’t progressing on the OCD front. In terms of OCD it is as stable today with no pills (maybe even better) than it was when I was taking the pills.

I literally didn’t know that the sexual side effects would continue after treatment I just thought it was a natural side effect while on treatment. I was fucking dumb at 22, it’s sad.

Do you think that stopping them so abruptly caused this? I’ve read conflicting answers regarding stopping SSRI’s, some said that stopping them cold turkey caused the issues, some said it doesn’t matter how you stop. I didn’t have many withdrawal symptoms or side effects except for the brain zaps and vomits.

I went to two doctors so far. One prescribed me 60mg testosterone cream without even drawing my blood. Just saw a blood exam from 2019 and instantly prescribed me testosterone and that DHEA and other supplements. I think I might disregard that for now.

Second doctor tested my testosterone and it was 500ng/dl total and told me my hormones were good and didn’t prescribed me any testosterone because the sexual issues I’m having are not due to hormones but most likely due to the antidepressants.

He prescribed me however this stack

  • Vitamin D3 5 000 UI + k2 150mcg + Vitamin A 1000 UI + Vitamin E 400UI + B complex.

What do you think as a starter? You said that Vitamin K needs to be added to Vitamin D, so I’m assuming this second doctor has a better approach to this than the first one.
I have no Vitamin C here though, so maybe I should eat a bit better.

Isn’t the recommended dose of curcumin 250mg/day for someone at 90kg? Curcumin would be almost 10€/day at 1000mg/day if I was buying Solgar full spectrum curcumin. 180 800mg pills from pipingrock are much cheaper at like 7€ for 180 pills, so something is not right in these calculations. Do you have a brand you recommend?

Inositol, do I buy it in powder form from myprotein or in pill form from solgar? Powder is 25€ / 500g, while pills are 11€ per 50 * 500mg. Seems like pills have other components than pure powder form. 1 pill contains other stuff other than inositol. What do you recommend buying here? We’re both from Europe and I’m assuming you buy stuff online.

Again, how is inositol starting at 6g when pills are only 500mg and recommended doses are 500mg 3 times a day?

I know that hypericum is like 300mg 3 times a day if it goes well, starting at 300mg once a day.

Oh yeah, I want to get back to who I was when I was 21. OCD is a meme condition after all these years I have to fight it within me without any pills, I’m tired. Having mild OCD but being able to have good erections and high libido is a very very good trade of.

Is Icariin horny goat weed? Recommend where to buy please because I’m looking at iHerb and the planetary horny goat weed they have only contains something like 10% icariin (Epimedium Aerial Parts Extract (10% flavonoids as icariin) and Epimedium Aerial Parts 200 mg).

I don’t want to mask any side effects, I want to treat them. Do you think that neurotransmitters after taking and trying out supplements can be treated/fixed/cured?

I want to start trying to repair the damage with supplements, better sleep schedule which I think will help with dopamine/serotonin. My sleep quality declined a lot after starting SSRI’s and stayed shit after stopping and exercising. I need to motivate myself to get out of bed and go to the gym and to the pool.

Need recommendations on where to buy supplements and why do doses differ so much from one manufacturer to the other.