A buddy of mine is a chemical engineering major and has access to a lot of equipment. We’ve been talking a lot about trying to convert since he can check it out by infrared spectroscopy and maybe NMR. Other stuff too, not exactly sure what (I only barely got through chem). In case you don’t know that would allow him to see what chemicals are present. I’m not sure if he could figure out percentages or not but possibly.
i did it just like the Dazed method says.
One thing I did a little different was that when reconstituting the powder, I would use just enough WARM methanol to get a supersaturated soln, and then would add COLD distilled water dropwise to precipitate out crystals.
After the 3rd recrystallization the melting point was still a little low, so I went through it a fourth time and melting point came in right where I wanted it. I have been told, and pretty much believe, that without some type of sophisticated capillary testing apparatus, that a ‘kitchen chemist’ melting point test is just about useless…OTOH, the MP did go up a couple of degress after the final recrystallization.
It is a little time consuming - it took about 3 days for all the filtering and drying etc. - but it’s not like I had to stand over it and watch it. In the end I got over 14 grams powder from 1 box (10 carts)
[quote]testolius wrote:
I have tried the process and it made some fairly painless Test-P. No way of knowing if I got all the estro out…rudimentary melting point tests (for what little that’s worth…) confirms purity, and will know how well it works in about 2 wks…will post results here at that time.[/quote]
Bump on this post, looking for results from this method of conversion. The “Dazed Conv” Method that is.
[quote]freddyz wrote:
testolius wrote:
I have tried the process and it made some fairly painless Test-P. No way of knowing if I got all the estro out…rudimentary melting point tests (for what little that’s worth…) confirms purity, and will know how well it works in about 2 wks…will post results here at that time.
Bump on this post, looking for results from this method of conversion. The “Dazed Conv” Method that is.
[/quote]
Ran it w/ Tren (from fina)…along w .5 eod liquid adex as AI, and .5 cabaser e3d for possible prolactin from Tren.
Got some puffiness/bloating/moon face until I changed AI to AIFM. Gained solid 20# then intentionally dieted about 7 of that off…strength gains through the roof.
Don’t know if I got ALL estro out, but would say I did good enough. Will prob stick w/ homebrewed Tren/Test for all future cycles as it is only way to know for sure what I’m getting…cheap too.
Synovex history at a very Brief glance…
Hi. This is my first post. I would like to comment on some of the first few post on this thread. I was just headed over to gotfina to get heavys directions on synovex again. I was shocked to hear what happened with the site.
Anyway I have researched synovex kit ingredients with great veracity the last 2 year’s or so. Adhering to the truth has been a huge challenge but I highly believe the following to be true.
First, sodium tert butoxide - It was used as an earlier method. With sodium tert butoxide, along with Sodium hydroxide you can accomplish the same thing, and that’s because they are very similar.
Tert is known as NaO(CH3). Their just mean base chems. Tert butoxide also salts the estrogen and will not saponify it. This means that it is a better choice for test propionate but you get a semi-refined test.
With NAOH you have to be more careful because not only will it salt the estrogen but it will saponify the ester eventually; thus giving test base (TNE).
What’s really different about these chems is that each require different amounts and different times for their use. justin templer has told me that the reason tert is not being used anymore is because of how unstable it is possibly but this is speculation.
It could be because the chemical tert was getting harder to get ahold of because some of the chemical houses such as fischerci stopped carrying it and guy’s didn’t use China.
I have followed some of the earlier post of Chemo. Much if this information was very readily available around 2002. Let me add that Chemo wrote that both methods give good estradiol separation.
It seems like Dazed kit became the standard and so their was no reason to share the knowledge.
Chemo shared the below information in 2002.
For those that are interested here’s how to do animal’s conversion without the kit:
(1)Dissolve the pellets in methanol (heet)…maybe 2 bottles for 10 carts.
(2) Add 2 or 3 tablespoons of saturated sodium hydroxide solution, stir and let sit for a day or two. This cleaves the esters and makes estradiol SOLUBLE in water.
(3) Add about a liter or so of water…the test base will precipitate.
(4) Filter and wash with water several times. This removes more estradiol and excess hydroxide. Check the pH if possible and verify it is neutral. Or, just wash the heck out of it.
(5) Let dry and enjoy 18-20 g test base!
EDIT: ADD ANALYSIS INFO FOR NO KIT METHOD
The product from 3 batches were analyzed and found to contain an average of .5% estradiol.
Now. I said I wanted to address some of the first few post, but mainly I want to share the knowledge that NAOH can be used and is probaly the best bet. Let me comment on the super saturated solution method.
Their are divided opinions on whether re-saturating synovex several times will ever work. I have seen some seemingly sharp chemistry students dismiss this method saying that it’s basically impossible, but the most damning proof is that Dazed retracted his statement on this method.
He later said that it wouldn’t work. It is used to get crystals to this date- but people than use Tert butoxide or NAOH. I tried it but not with the patience that the above poster did. My results were bad…
That’s all. I hope that I can save some people some time and clear up some things. Like I said, this is what I believe to be the most accurate information.
By the way… I noticed that my post doesn’t answer all the questions, but I wanted to add the following for those who didn’t know. NAOH can be bought legally probaly in your town. I use Lowes but for the purpose of making soap.
If you wanted to make saturated sodium hydroxide yourself. You basically take 10ml of water or so and add small amounts of the NAOH at a time. (maybe a teaspoon) Don’t worry- it’s not an exact science. This gets hot so people use cold water to bathe the bottle at all times.
At some point the crystals or powder that you add are not going to dissolve anymore. You have now completely saturated the water. Add just enough water to dissolve what wont dissolve and you have your saturated sodium hydroxide. Now I believe for 10 carts- you are going to use 10cc of this, but you might want to either check back with me or check around.
---------------EDIT_______-------
What was I thinking?? 10ml of water is wrong. A cup or so is good, than add your naoh crystals or powder. I was told that NAOH can accomplish what tert can, and I want to clear up my post here because I see that I might seem contradicting. NAOH supposedly will make test propionate if you use 5ml of saturated naoh for 10 carts and stir it up for about an hour. Well don’t stir for an hour!! but stir it every 15 minutes.
Now- I might be wrong about this! but over at gotfina I got into some heated discussions with a seemingly knowledgeable guy who, like me; is on the same quest. He told me that he knows what’s in dazed mixture but that he wont share.
I was a little upset that he wouldn’t PM me for personal use, but we became sort of friends and he told me that naoh, infact will work if the times are lowered and the amount is much weaker. I got to say that the last time I ordered a syno kit.
The smell and look and taste were exact, and no I didn’t taste a lot but some was trapped on my skin from handling it. Taste will tell you nothing but I know my kit’s mystery mix smelled exactly like the naoh I made up. By the way- it’s not a good idea to smell this stuff but I was very careful to limit my time doing it.
very interesting stuff… thanks guys.
Testolius - how did you become so advanced? Yourself, or are you a doctor or something??!
Joe
I left something else out. 1 hour with sodium hydroxide makes a product which yields test prop. If you choose to go 24 hrs you than get test base (TNE)- test no ester. This is probably hard for some people to believe but if you remember in my first post I said that it’s important how much NAOH we use. If we are going to let it sit for 24 hrs, it’s not necessarily going to turn to yellow sludge if we don’t over do the naoh we add. Also you might want to stir it once in awhile. When you go to harvest those crystals. Think twice about just pouring your distilled water in their.
Firstly, you don’t want to get powder which is what this will get you. You want to slowly add the water drop wise after so many ml so that you can get crystals. You will know when to add it drop wise because the test starts to appear. Crystals take like 5 minutes to filter with water and powder takes forever and you might run the risk of not getting all the naoh off. If you want to go even one step farther try this: Take the distilled water you are going to use for dripping into the methanol and put in a sterile 2 liter bottle. Place in a fridge above the methanol solution and let drip in this cold environment. The cold temperature produces bigger crystals.
One person I knew posted that he froze the water and as it melted it dripped into methanol. Personally, if I were going to do that? I would start that at the 23 hr mark of the project but you will probaly be fine either way. That’s all.
infidelx: thanks for sharing…good info and consistent with my current understanding.
OK - here is my latest method, combining the best of both the selective recrystallization method and an idea from Bill Roberts in another post.
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Use selective recrystallization (without NaOH) to precipitate Test-P crystals. Use of cold distilled water as mentioned in above post is recommended, as is the tip about proceeding slowly to ensure good crystal formation.
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Dissolve the crystals in oil ONLY (no BB), as estradiol is only fractionally soluble in straight oil. This will hold at just about 100mg/ml. I add 1-2% BA AFTER filtering to ensure freshness.
And no, Joe, I am not a doctor, but I play one one TV…seriously, I just did a lot of research and some experimentation as I don’t have the sources available that some seem to have. This is still the method that I trust the most, both in terms of product integrity and sterility…cheap too.
hey thanks bro!
I have seen a friend fitterx swear that he has success with re-crystallization and I’m nobody to argue with him. I experimented with 1 cart and had problems myself. Hope u let us know how it goes. I found an awesome recipe for test suspension.
Basically the result is 75mg/ml and somewhat painless shots, but the best thing is that it can be administered using a 30 gauge slin needle. I read that test suspension is under appreciated and may have effects for up to 3 day’s. interesting. I like good old sustanon- but that’s not a for sure thing yet.
This is a great thread, one question “couldn’t find it via search”
I’ve read a couple diff recipes, some calling for BB some not.
Is it necessary to use the BB. Would it be safe to just use BA?
Neither BB or BA are absolutely necessary.
BB will help it to ‘hold’ at greater concentrations.
Most, myself included, add 1-2% BA to help maintain sterility.
Thanks Test appreciate all the info you’ve put in this thread, its been a great deal of help to me.
Maybe one of you bro’s can help me out. I think I’m wrong on the naoh and amount? I’m seeing information that suggest 25ml for 5 carts? That sound right to anyone. My friends in the middle of first 10 cart convers. now and it’s frusterating finding different information.
EDIT. I’m finding more and more proof that NAOH for 1 hour makes prop. I guess I’m going with 12 hrs personally because some say 24 hrs will kill a lot of the test. Also- I’m using 2 ounces of water and adding NAOH tablespoon at a time- not teaspoon.
Than when it is supersaturated (cant hold anymore naoh)- I will take 2.5 or 3 tablespoons of this liquid NAOH and put in the methanol solution. I’m taking information from various research and making my best guess at this point.
My research has indicated that anything over 2 hrs will start to strip the prop ester.
Even though I don’t use anything at all in terms of an estrogen solubilizer, I have some info from what I consider to be a credible source for specific NaOH concentration and exposure time.
I will try to dig up and post this eve.
OK- sorry, I misremembered…this method was to make test base from test-prop crystals for suspension or transdermals.
It DOES gives specifics about concentration and exposure time. Keep in mind that this method is to be used on test-prop crystals produced vis supersaturated selective recrystallization.
If you’re dead set on using NaOH as an estrogen solubilizer, I suppose the concentration given is a good place to start. I think I read somewhere else that the exposure time should be one hour, but I have never done it and can’t find a reference for that idea.
Originally posted by ‘FatSuperman’
[quote]
Here is my method for getting test base from the test prop.
Quote:
My big prob with the wardog method is it doesn’t weigh out the Naoh (teaspoon) huh, or give a real time frame (overnight). This creates a lot of ambiguity, not very scientific, so it is easy to mess it all up.
I’m not a chemist, just a tinkerer. I defer to those with more technical training. But this method did indeed work for me and didn’t burn up the test.
I never get gyno or even itchy nipples EVER so I might be a poor judge or how much estrogen was indeed left over.
Here is the technique I found that I trialed and errored my way into. Remember these are crystals I have purified via supersaturation/selective recrystalization to remove the estrogen.
so basically this is my test prop stripping technique, critique it from your knowledge and see if it could be improved or simplified. (my apologies to those who have seen this before)
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dissolve crystals in 30 cc methenol (heet) per each gram of crystals used
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In a seperate small glass container dissolve .5 grams of NAOH per each gram of crystals used.
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In this second small glass container Add 10 cc of distilled water per each .5 grams of NAOH used. In other words if you were converting 2 grams of Test Prop crystals you should be adding 1 gram of NAOH and 20 cc of distilled water
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Add the super saturated NAOH solution to the heet/test prop solution, and wait exactly 2 hours / 120 minutes. Any more time any your crystals will turn yellow and you will lose test base yield. Less time means you won’t convert all of your test prop to test base.
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Drip wise add water to the solution, adding water more slowly creates better crystals, that are easier to filter.
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Filter this via coffee filter and rinse with Distilled water until the rinse through water has the same PH as the distilled water. I don’t trust PH strips, I prefer a PH meter but I can imagine most people don’t have one lying around. Since you are only using this as a transdermal you only have to get it close enough not to create skin irritation.
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Dry the crystals, if you are unsure if the conversion worked you can test the melting point, if it is above 145 C then you have stripped the ester. If you are still hovering in the 120 - 125 C range you still have Test Prop.
The conversion should yield around 70% of the Test Prop weight. Remember that test base only weights 83% of what test prop does so if you conversion is above 75% you probably have some ester still left on the test.
Remember you need only a very small quantity of lye for this process, buy as little as possible.[/quote]
If you try this, please post results so we can all learn from each other’s experience.
Good luck.
Firstly, thanks Testolius.
Let me say that I’ve seen this guy’s instructions before, but after looking at it again, I see where it’s probably the best instructions for anyone to follow as far as TNE. I think we can all agree that it’s way more scientific as it gives precise amounts. I really could have used this last week. My results in my friends TNE was sludge, mostly green liquid with yellow floating gunk. According to some directions I found- this is typically what you can expect when making TNE? So, I sort of messed up and bought some Dmso for transdermal applications. The dmso really can irritate your skin pretty bad. I will be working on getting some legitimate test such as sustanon that is already made up. I think if I put just 5% of the energy that I put into synovex into finding professional grade or UG stuff than I will succeed quickly.
[quote]infidelx wrote:
Firstly, thanks Testolius.
Let me say that I’ve seen this guy’s instructions before, but after looking at it again, I see where it’s probably the best instructions for anyone to follow as far as TNE. I think we can all agree that it’s way more scientific as it gives precise amounts. I really could have used this last week. My results in my friends TNE was sludge, mostly green liquid with yellow floating gunk. According to some directions I found- this is typically what you can expect when making TNE? So, I sort of messed up and bought some Dmso for transdermal applications. The dmso really can irritate your skin pretty bad. I will be working on getting some legitimate test such as sustanon that is already made up. I think if I put just 5% of the energy that I put into synovex into finding professional grade or UG stuff than I will succeed quickly. [/quote]
I dunno I have been looking for ug stuff and its kind of dry as of late
how did you get the green sludge stuff you mentioned?
I am a chem major and a Modern O-Chem student.
First- problem with the recrystillization method. Yes weight to weight you have 10:1 test:estrogen BUT the estrogen if 5 times LESS soluble in methanol SO this method sounds good if both solubilities were the same, but in reality you would end up with a lot of estrogen in you crystals, even after many recrystillizations.
2- NaOH for one hour WILL work to remove the Benzoate ester from estrogen, but leave MOST of the propionate ester on the test.
How? Why? The Oxygen we are trying to hydrolize on the estrogen ester is 2nd degree allylic- very reactive! The test propionate ester’s oxygen is just 2nd degree- not nearly as reactive. So the science is this, if you leave in the saturated NaOH solution for one hour it will attack all of the benzoate esters quickly (and also some of the prop esters, but much more slowely). This leaves you with mostly esterdoil salt (sol in H2O) some test salt (aka test base, sol in H20) AND test prop with some small amount of estrogen benzoate left. NOT TO Worry!
Now that we have taken care of MOST of the estrogen benzoate we can use the recrystallization method on the first page of this post to make test prop crystals that are very clean.
Why? How? Because as the first re-cryst. poster said, we have 10:1 test:estro. so the test will precipitate out first as it will be saturated in solution first if we add water. Since we removed most of the estrogen benzoate with our saponification (ie NaOH reaction) we now hove a solution that is 100:1 or even 1000:1 test:estrogen.
So I do the following… I will be brief as most of this info is already on here and you can piece it together.
Disolve in HEET, Filter.
Add Conc. NaOH to filtrate for one hour.
Add COLD distilled water dropwise to precipitate test prop crystals (test base is sol. in water, so we will loss that, but I would rather have the prop myself) 500ml of cold water will suffice, filter crystals, rinse with copious amounts of COLD COLD COLD distilled water.
Now… we have a ton of test prop with respect to estrogen benzoate SO
re-crystallize… disolve the crystals above in HEET. Warm this up a little and add COLD distilled water again. due to the very high ratio of Test:estro we are making essentially PURE test prop this time. Filter.
Now you could do this again or just dry your crystals. I do 3 total crystallizations, including the first. Each time you do it you ae cutting the small amount of estrogen down. No method, no kit nothing will remove 100% of the estrogen, but at this point your body will make much more aromatizing the test then you will have in your pin. Basic precautions and good PCT, which you should always use anyway, will make this a non-issue.
Long story short… the NaOH method for one hour will make test prop (or any STRONG base/ Good Nucleophile for that matter)due to the reactivity of allylic oxygen. This is good for a solid 75% to 80% yeild (loss in each filtration and container transfer). Concidering 20g test prop costs about $85 thats a shit load of prop cheap when your done.
CORRECTION-
the only method to get close to 100% prop yield and 0% estrogen would be chromatography - which most people won’t be able to do at home (even though it is not all that difficult).
Other then that, even the best kit will leave estrogen benzoate in solution, albeit nominal amounts.
If you buy a kit, re-crystallize 3 times and your golden.
If you want to save litterally $150 bucks, go buy some lye at walmart. All of the glassware, BB, BA, Whatman filter ect can be purchase for $30 in mush larger quantities then supplied with the kit, ie enough to do this again next year!