T Nation

Switching from T/HCG/AI to T/Clomid/AI?


#1

Hi, I recently had a good protocol hooked up with a clinic in NYC but had to move across the country, I found another clinic out here but their protocol switches HCG with Clomid. Anyone see any potential issues with this? I tried to go through my PCP to continue my protocol and he sent me to an Endo who saw no need for Anastrozole or HCG, and wanted to ween me off TRT completely (my initial labs when I started were TT=301) So I’m looking into other options.

Thanks!


#2

Please follow and read these links in 2nd post of 1st forum topic:

  • advice for new guys - provide more info please
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Are you, were you wearing fire retardant gear next to your skin for extended amounts of time?

Clomid is a problem because some guys gets nasty side effects, Nolvadex does not to that. Docs do not know because it is not in the literature. Dose could be 10mg ED or 20mg EOD.

Endo’s and urologists are typically very bad at TRT issues.


#3

Hey thanks KSman! Yeah I read all those stickies last year before I decided to pursue TRT and made sure my protocol lined up as close as possible. Been taking a multivitamin that contains iodine as well as using iodized salt.

The protocol I’ve been on it 170mg of Test Cyp per week, split into 80mg and 90mg doses, along with .5mg of Anastrozole and 500IUs of HCG, split into 2 doses. This has my levels around TT=800 and E2 ~30

No on the fire retardant gear. Just out of curiosity, why do you ask?

Any common side effects I should look for with Clomid? I haven’t started it yet but that’s what I was concerned with. I’ll try to get the clinic to put me on Nolvadex instead of Clomid. What are the differences?

Yeah I’m just gonna bail on my PCP and Endo regarding TRT I guess.

Thanks again!!


#4

Clomid will NOT work to increase LH/FSH while you are on T injections. I have bloodwork to prove this. Also, I had 1/2 dose of T compared to yours. Another member on Pharma confirmed this with bloodwork also.


#5

I am not convinced.
For a SERM to work, the top end of the HPTA cannot be broken.

Clomid makes some feel terrible. Nolvadex does not do that. Both have similar functions.

I had one guy in a warm humid climate [sweating] who work fire retardant clothing all shift long. Antimony was causing problems to all of the firefighters and EMT guys. Bromine based fire retardants are bad because bromines displace iodine in the body.

Most normal anastrozole responders need around 1mg/week anastrozole per 100mg T per week.
So you might need 1.7mg anastrozole.

We can calculate a new dose to get you nearer to E2=22pgml:
New dose = old dose X 30/22 = 1.0 x 30/22 = 1.37
Can you be more specific about E2=~30pg/ml?

You will need a liquid anastrozole to get finer dose increments. You can mix tabs 1mg/ml with vodka and dispense by the drop after you could drops per ml.

Lower E2 may decrease SHBG and increase FT. Could improve mindset/mood and libido.


#6

You are making an assumption that the top end of my HPTA is COMPLETELY broken. It is not. Since 5 weeks I’ve stopped the T injections and stayed on Clomid+Adex only. My testicles have gotten bigger indicating LH/FSH release. I will have bloodwork to confirm this after 6th week. One week to go.

OP, T+SERM will NOT work.


#7

Hey KSman, yeah I think I might be somewhat sensitive to anastrozole, I tried a higher dose and it dropped my E2 to 10. I think I should probably be somewhere between .5 and .75 mg per week. I put ~30 because that was the average of some tests, it was mid-20s for a while but it got up to 35pgml and 44pgml at one point and I went up to .75 anastrozole then E2 went down to 15, (maybe I’m taking it at the wrong time? I usually take .25mg with my T dose cause it’s easy to remember) so I generally do .5 these days, I’m gonna get blood work done again in a couple weeks. Anything else I should check after being on TRT for 1.5 years? Thanks again!


#8

You are not providing enough info about you.

AST/ALT
TT
FT
E2
prolactin if a younger guy
PSA if older
TSH
CBC
hematocrit
AM cortisol if you have low energy


#9

Cool, I’ll get those labs updated in a couple weeks at my next appointment, so we’ll have up to date numbers. Can they test AM cortisol or is that something I have to get a kit for?

Also I’m 32, 5’9" 175 lbs if that helps anything.


#10

AM cortisol is blood work and you need to do it a 8AM.


#11

Cool I’ll get that done too. Does it have more to do with what time you wake up though? If I wake up at 8am every day what time should I have it done?


#12

One hour after waking up would be good.
No caffeine before please.

Your 32, 5’9" 175 lbs seems excellent.
Well muscled or some fat?
I can’t seem to put weight on. I keep training and getting stronger with more muscle. Just seem to get less+less body fat. 31" 67, 5’9" 159 lbs.


#13

Noted re: cortisol test

Pretty well muscled but still some extra fat especially in my belly (my dad has a large pot belly so it’s partially a genetic predisposition I assume), I got one of those fancy body scan things done at my gym about a year apart before and after TRT, and looks like TRT helped me put on about 5 lbs of muscle, and you can tell my back/shoulders/arms got bigger, but I’m still probably 18 or 19 percent body fat as well. I’d probably look good at about 165.

At least you’re seeing progress with the body fat and strength! I wish I had that issue :slight_smile:


#14

Also is the cortisol test regarding adrenal fatigue or what’s the purpose of getting those numbers?


#15

The focus on thyroid/iodine and cortisol/adrenal fatigue is the impact on metabolic rate. That has a lot to do with fat levels. E2 also makes a difference too, especially trimming belly fat.

When you get the new labs, please ping me via KSman is here thread.
It tax time and my attention will be split.


#16

Hey I just got some genetic results back from 23andme and Promethease and looks like I’m a cyp3a5 non-expressor. I dunno if you’re familiar with that but it seems like something to do with liver enzymes and processing of some drugs. It mentions testosterone as well. Do you know if that would make me more sensitive to anastrozole?


#17

Interesting: This might show up in how you react to many drugs.

You respond to alcohol normally. More/less prone to hangovers.

If you start injected TRT, we may see some effects surface.