[quote]inthego wrote:
Maybe I am the idiot here but that makes me want to hit it harder/heavier to day…
solid[/quote]
Agreed. The intensity in that weightroom was motivating.
[quote]Ajax wrote:
inthego wrote:
Maybe I am the idiot here but that makes me want to hit it harder/heavier to day…
solid
Agreed. The intensity in that weightroom was motivating.[/quote]
Not to mention alot of the guys were larger/more developed than more than a few of the members who post alot around here.
Well I imagine I am going to get a lot of heat for this, but here goes.
First off I am not big. I deadlift maybe 1/3 of what that guy was deadlifting, I am working my way up safely and do not feel even remotely ashamed of the weight I lift.
I do not understand when it became acceptable among the “bigger” guys that sacrificing even remotely decent form is ok in lieu of moving larger amounts of weight. I dont mean sacrificing good form, I mean just not jerking it up and down during the arc of motion up (for this specific situation).
I am not saying that my form is perfect with every lift and every rep. But for myself, and I would imagine for those lifting much higher numbers than me, you would stop and say “Ok, the risk in this ONE rep might not be worth the benefits from this ONE rep at the way I am moving it.”, and set the bar down.
Does that mean that you will not ever be able to progress in strength and weight without incorporating heavily cheated moves? I don’t know. I guess that depends on how much patience you have vs. how much you are willing to cheat some to move the weight from point A to point B (all other nutritional and training techniques aside).
Perhaps somewhere between the journey of me at 195lbs to me at 250lbs the light will shine on me and I will get it, but as of right now I don’t.
Yeah, I know this goes against many of the more popular people on the forum, but that is my opinion for what it is worth.
Neither of those lifts would count in a powerlifting competition. I personally prefer to train how I compete, and would never count lifts like that in my training log. However… he probably doesn’t share that same goal. For his goals, those are probably good lifts, and who would I be to criticize his goals, much less make fun of them?
Looked like my old high school football team. We sucked.
[quote]Varanid wrote:
Well I imagine I am going to get a lot of heat for this, but here goes.
Perhaps somewhere between the journey of me at 195lbs to me at 250lbs the light will shine on me and I will get it, but as of right now I don’t.
Yeah, I know this goes against many of the more popular people on the forum, but that is my opinion for what it is worth.
[/quote]
Well at least you have a logical debate going on in your post. There’s too many people too quick and all too willing to bust someone’s balls for straying from the textbook form when in reality those same guys have never even broken 315# off the floor and never will.
That attitude (not yours) is what KEEPS most guys from adding serious muscle to thier frame.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
meanest wrote:
“That’s how you do it.”
Uh, no.
Here is the same guys ~495 squat.
No comment.
There’s nothing wrong there.
[/quote]
That’s why I said no comment. I didn’t find anything really wrong with it… except the cheering and the spotting.
[quote]Varanid wrote:
Well I imagine I am going to get a lot of heat for this, but here goes.
First off I am not big. I deadlift maybe 1/3 of what that guy was deadlifting, I am working my way up safely and do not feel even remotely ashamed of the weight I lift.
I do not understand when it became acceptable among the “bigger” guys that sacrificing even remotely decent form is ok in lieu of moving larger amounts of weight. I dont mean sacrificing good form, I mean just not jerking it up and down during the arc of motion up (for this specific situation).
I am not saying that my form is perfect with every lift and every rep. But for myself, and I would imagine for those lifting much higher numbers than me, you would stop and say “Ok, the risk in this ONE rep might not be worth the benefits from this ONE rep at the way I am moving it.”, and set the bar down.
Does that mean that you will not ever be able to progress in strength and weight without incorporating heavily cheated moves? I don’t know. I guess that depends on how much patience you have vs. how much you are willing to cheat some to move the weight from point A to point B (all other nutritional and training techniques aside).
Perhaps somewhere between the journey of me at 195lbs to me at 250lbs the light will shine on me and I will get it, but as of right now I don’t.
Yeah, I know this goes against many of the more popular people on the forum, but that is my opinion for what it is worth.
[/quote]
Get back to us when you hit 250lbs and let us know if you still feel the same.
Heavy weights build big muscles. My goal is to lift the heavy stuff…because it makes you grow. Cheating a little is a non-issue. I have had no serious injuries up to this point so people can yell how wrong it is all they want to. Very few of those guys who are big are in the dark about how and when a little loose form actually helps.
And after having read the whole thread, my comment still stands. Improper form is improper form, no exceptions, no excuses. And I don’t have to lift as much as him in order to criticize him. It’s my God-given right as an American to do so. Deal with it.
And its our God-given right (as a human, not just an American) to disagree. So deal with it.
Its my God-given right to consider you a whiny child for criticizing his form too.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
meanest wrote:
“That’s how you do it.”
Uh, no.
Here is the same guys ~495 squat.
No comment.
There’s nothing wrong there.
[/quote]
exactly.
I’m not big, so my input here may be off base.
But the deadlift looked rough, and yes I can’t do any where near that.
But, that has to put a lot of stress on the lumbar region to jerk the weight like that. He may be fine now, but after a few years of that technique I’d like to hear how his back is doing.
BTW- I’m not anti-bad form, I’m anti-injury
I wonder what Cressey would say about it, he puts up large #s and goes into detail about the technique of the DL. Nowhere in there is the “jerk” method.
I’m not castrating the guy, I just think he should lower the weight in the future to help reduce future injury.
but what do I know, I’m small 
[quote]derek wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Well at least you have a logical debate going on in your post. There’s too many people too quick and all too willing to bust someone’s balls for straying from the textbook form when in reality those same guys have never even broken 315# off the floor and never will.
That attitude (not yours) is what KEEPS most guys from adding serious muscle to thier frame. [/quote]
I understand that adaptation to exercise, not only physiological adaptation-but physical tweak type adaptations are most likely necessary to get to certain goals in this lifestyle, and understand what you are saying.
And thanks for not coming back at me.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Get back to us when you hit 250lbs and let us know if you still feel the same.
Heavy weights build big muscles. My goal is to lift the heavy stuff…because it makes you grow. Cheating a little is a non-issue. I have had no serious injuries up to this point so people can yell how wrong it is all they want to. Very few of those guys who are big are in the dark about how and when a little loose form actually helps.[/quote]
I will let you know when I get to 250, but don’t hold your breadth-it’s going to be awhile.
I also believe that cheating a little is a non-issue…when done safely. And yes, I do believe that as much of an oxymoron as that statement is, it is completely plausible.
What I was personally commenting on is not cheating in the sense of a slight swing in favor of momentum, but what were multiple jerks that looked incredibly dangerous on the spine.
Perhaps I am completely off base and the person’s form was only “a little loose”, and in fact he is completely aware of how far he can take his body before his ligaments, tendons, and bones give way.
Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.
Or perhaps I was not off base and the person just used what appeared to be a largely dangerous move.
Any rate, thanks for being cordial.
[quote]Varanid wrote:
And thanks for not coming back at me.
[/quote]
It’s replies like yours, the kind that are at least well thought out that make T-Nation an interesting place.
The fact that you don’t come off as superior and/or judgemental is the key.
I personally don’t like the “hitch” in the deadlift video. But if you’ve ever seen Chuck Vogelpohl lockout a heavy dead in training, he shakes like an earthquake, like violently shaking a doll. But if you think I’m going to call him out on it, you’re nuts! I mean the guy squats over a grand in the 220’s! (IIRC)
[quote]Varanid wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Get back to us when you hit 250lbs and let us know if you still feel the same.
Heavy weights build big muscles. My goal is to lift the heavy stuff…because it makes you grow. Cheating a little is a non-issue. I have had no serious injuries up to this point so people can yell how wrong it is all they want to. Very few of those guys who are big are in the dark about how and when a little loose form actually helps.
I will let you know when I get to 250, but don’t hold your breadth-it’s going to be awhile.
I also believe that cheating a little is a non-issue…when done safely. And yes, I do believe that as much of an oxymoron as that statement is, it is completely plausible.
What I was personally commenting on is not cheating in the sense of a slight swing in favor of momentum, but what were multiple jerks that looked incredibly dangerous on the spine.
Perhaps I am completely off base and the person’s form was only “a little loose”, and in fact he is completely aware of how far he can take his body before his ligaments, tendons, and bones give way.
Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.
Or perhaps I was not off base and the person just used what appeared to be a largely dangerous move.
Any rate, thanks for being cordial.
[/quote]
A problem I have with your original post, Varanid, is that it -sounds- like you’re assuming these guys do these kind of reps on a constant basis. I’m sure they don’t. When trying to move the biggest weight possible, sometimes a person can’t help but sacrifice their form a little bit, or try and do anything to get the weight up. It’s easy to talk about keeping great form under a 495 squat, but when it comes down to it, the human instinct of self-preservation will kick in and say “Holy shit, this is a lot of weight. How can I get this up in the easiest way?”
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Its my God-given right to consider you a whiny child for criticizing his form too.[/quote]
I know you’re partly jesting but come on, a whiny child? You can do better than that.
I’ve seen his form was excused by someone because the guy probably knows it’s bad form, but the benefit outweighs the risk according to you guys. That’s not thinking clearly. A back injury could take him out for good and it looks like he’s only beginning his PLing career judging by his other vids.
Excusing it for this guy by saying that he probably knows what he’s doing will also be incentive for everyone who thinks they know what they are doing to use bad form when they are aware of it. It’s irresponsible.
[quote]SSC wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Perhaps I am completely off base and the person’s form was only “a little loose”, and in fact he is completely aware of how far he can take his body before his ligaments, tendons, and bones give way.
Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.
Or perhaps I was not off base and the person just used what appeared to be a largely dangerous move.
Any rate, thanks for being cordial.
A problem I have with your original post, Varanid, is that it -sounds- like you’re assuming these guys do these kind of reps on a constant basis. I’m sure they don’t. When trying to move the biggest weight possible, sometimes a person can’t help but sacrifice their form a little bit, or try and do anything to get the weight up. It’s easy to talk about keeping great form under a 495 squat, but when it comes down to it, the human instinct of self-preservation will kick in and say “Holy shit, this is a lot of weight. How can I get this up in the easiest way?”
[/quote]
That is absolutely something that I had thought about when I posted my reply to Professor X. I fully understand that when you are in the middle of a big lift…you get in a state of do or die.
That is one of the things I tried to touch on when I wrote
“Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.”
I am not going to ever in my life discredit the gut wrenching fortitude that it takes to pull of a big lift like that. The only thing I would say is that it may be much more prudent in the long run - or even the immediate short run- to simply drop the weight instead of yanking it up.
I do understand what you are saying though.
[quote]Varanid wrote:
SSC wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Varanid wrote:
Perhaps I am completely off base and the person’s form was only “a little loose”, and in fact he is completely aware of how far he can take his body before his ligaments, tendons, and bones give way.
Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.
Or perhaps I was not off base and the person just used what appeared to be a largely dangerous move.
Any rate, thanks for being cordial.
A problem I have with your original post, Varanid, is that it -sounds- like you’re assuming these guys do these kind of reps on a constant basis. I’m sure they don’t. When trying to move the biggest weight possible, sometimes a person can’t help but sacrifice their form a little bit, or try and do anything to get the weight up. It’s easy to talk about keeping great form under a 495 squat, but when it comes down to it, the human instinct of self-preservation will kick in and say “Holy shit, this is a lot of weight. How can I get this up in the easiest way?”
That is absolutely something that I had thought about when I posted my reply to Professor X. I fully understand that when you are in the middle of a big lift…you get in a state of do or die.
That is one of the things I tried to touch on when I wrote
“Or perhaps I was off base and this person was in the middle of a 1RM and was caught up in the lift.”
I am not going to ever in my life discredit the gut wrenching fortitude that it takes to pull of a big lift like that. The only thing I would say is that it may be much more prudent in the long run - or even the immediate short run- to simply drop the weight instead of yanking it up.
I do understand what you are saying though.
[/quote]
Ah, gotcha. My apologies, I missed you saying that. I do agree with you for the most part, though, I try to do good form on just about everything. I can also say, though, that some of my biggest lifts weren’t necessarily my prettiest. There’s always something to improved on though, eh?