T Nation

Sustanon vs. Cyp and Enan


#4

T esters are a time release delivery system. Some products have ester groups that are removed more slowly [heavier] than others [ligher], creating a flatter longer release curve. If you inject more often, there really is no need for the longer lasting esters or proprietary blends, then ones choice is more determined by cost and availability. T cyp is typically a cotton seed base and T eth sesame seed. Rarely, one might be allergic to plant protein traces in the base oil and then one has to use the other.

Longer lasting esters or blends that are injected every week or two will always cause peak/trough problems for many. The only thing that addresses the problems of unsteady levels is frequent injections; which also reduces E2 levels.

Heavier esters will yield less T than lighter esters.

For those who need anastrozole to achieve optimal E2 levels, the need to match anastrozole dose to current T levels really dictates a need for steady T levels. This requires frequent injections and longer acting esters are then not compelling.

All T esters yield bio-identical T after the ester groups are removed. So in that regard, they are all interchangeable. If one will not inject more often than once a week, heavier T esters might easily feel better.

hCG and anastrozole should be dosed EOD, injecting T at the same time makes for a good routine for many. Then the longer acting esters have no added value and deliver less T.


#5

Thanks guys, I am going in Dec for my blood work to see where I am at. I know my Test is low, but I am almost positive my Doc won’t prescibe me Test(inj.) most likely a cream and a follow up in 3 months. Even if he did prescibe Test, I wouldn’t pay those prices when I can get it myself. Sust450 by syntrop or Cyp200 by Axio are the only test available domestically for me.

So I wanted to find out which might be better, but as far as price the Sust is cheaper due to the length a vial will last me compared to the Cyp. I plan on starting out at 100mg a week injected 2x a week, and keep getting my blood checked, letting the Doc think I am just using the cream. My goal is to get my TT above 700. I will adjust as needed.


#6

I like cypionate the most as I feel it converts least to estrogen. I have not done blood tests to prove it, but I like it much better by subjective value.


#7

Testosterone esters cannot convert to E2 or dock with T receptors. After the ester group is removed, you get [bio-identical] testosterone. Then a large amount will convert to SHBG-T and that is the end of the story for that. The rest is FT or weakly bound T, [mostly to albumin] that combined is bio-T. Bio-T can be metabolized into DHT or E2.

So after a particular ester of testosterone has its ester group removed, it is the same game for all of the different esters.

With weekly injections of these different esters, there will be different peaks and peak T levels do seem to driver higher overall E2 levels. This is what one might be feeling. Most here have only had experience with a single ester.

With frequent injections, levels are very steady and one might not feel any differences if one had the same serum T levels.

Different esters have different amounts of testosterone. The milligrams are for the T+ester. T eth has significantly more T than T cyp. When people feel a difference, they are probably feeling that. If they are managing E2 with an AI, then an increase in T delivery would need a proportionate increase in a competitive AI to maintain the same E2 levels.


#8

KSman do u think 250mg of sust a fortnight would give stable testosterone levels for trt purposes or with the different esters feel to up and down. My thinking is that after a few months all the long deconate esters would blend together and even out testosterone levels and the shorter esters when injected would give u a spike in testosterone levels but i suppose there then is the danger of increased E2 if this occurs, does that sound right?

cheers!!


#9

If you can find an ester with a half life of 14 days… But then there will still be peaks and higher average E2 levels and E2 management with changing T levels will always be flawed.


#10

I am going to inject 2x a week, so I think this will help keep my Serum levels pretty consistent, as much as expected at least. Also with the Sust450 a vial will last me much longer than Cyp200 or Eth250.

For AI’s, I have on hand from this past cycle A-dex, Aromasin and Nolv. I am probably going to run .25mg EOD of the A-dex first, then get E2 checked. I think this will be plenty for 100mg of Sust a week. Since I ran .5 mg EOD with 400mg week of Prop with good results. I heard that running Nolv with TRT has addition benefits other than just estrogen, any info anybody?

Also going to run the typ. 250iu EOD of HCG.


#11

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
Is this your plan or your doctor’s plan?

None of us are doctors. So we can’t tell you what medicine to use and what will be most beneficial for you.

I seriously wonder how it came into the patient’s hands to experiment with drugs prescribed. [/quote]

Keep in mind that you are one of the few that has not had any problems with their treatment. If I recall, you are just using the androgel and I don’t recall if you were covering the entire cost or not. For many of us the cost of $450/month is unreasonable. I started on androgel and my doctor said nothing about testing for FT or E2. Fortunately she has read most everything I have given her and understands enough to allow me to try anastozole/arimidex for E2 control and HCG to prevent testicular atrophy.

Most of us have not been able to just use the androgel with out E2 rising. And most of us have seen our nuts slowly disappear. If you did not get results similar to yours then you would start to question your doctor after trying to educate yourself. My doctor tells me she has other patients on androgel so I wonder just how many guys are using it with success by itself.

One thing TRT has taught me is that if you have a problem you need to educate yourself since your doctor is likely to just prescribe something and not fully understand your problem. They simply do not have time to devote to each patient.

Eventually you may find that you have a problem that your doctor cannot fix with a simple prescription. At that point you will start to take matters into your own hands and start asking for advice from anywhere you can get it. Getting the input from so many others is something the internet has enabled. I would never know what I do now if I could not read what others have experienced.

The first endocrinologist I went to see did not bother to review my file before I met with him. I talked to him for 5 minutes while he looked over my file. It took 3 months to get the appointment and probably cost $160 to have him say he does not think TRT is necessary and he certainly would not recommend an AI like arimidex or HCG. I asked him why he did not review my file before I came in and just tell me that he was not interested in treating me. He said they donâ??t have time to do that. And this is an example of the best health care system in the world.

Sorry, Iâ??m rambling, itâ??s late and I could not sleep so here I am looking for an argument. Nothing personal Brick I appreciate your in put on the forum.


#12

Nolvadex will maintain LH, maintaining the testes and some degree of one’s baseline T production. If the dose pushes LH too high, expect some of the same E2 management problems that come with high dose hCG. Most use hCG to maintain their testes. SERMs have side effects that make them suspect for years of continuous use.

If you use a SERM, you still need an AI for E2 management. [Some do not understand this or what a SERM really does.]


#13

[quote]KSman wrote:
If you can find an ester with a half life of 14 days… But then there will still be peaks and higher average E2 levels and E2 management with changing T levels will always be flawed.[/quote]Any thoughts on reandron/testosterone undeconate. I believe its comes in 4 ampules of 250mg each and u recieve all 4 ampules by injection every 3-4 months. I wonder if injecting this every fortnight would give stable T levels. Or even 125mg a week. I know local pharmacy’s sell it in 4x250mg amps and if covered by australian pharmacuetical scheme its like $33 or private script its like $120. Enthanate 250mg/ml x3 in $28.But getting for those prices u have to have ubsurdly low total T levels be over 40(1month to go)and they dont take free T levels into consideration. Docs can write a private script but the the price go’s through the roof as in reandron costing $120 for 4 amps, 8 weeks for $120 i suppose is cheaper then the black market.


#14

100mg of testosterone undeconate yields 63.15mg of testosterone after your body removes the ester group. Note that is this substantially less than cypionate or ethanate. With about a two week half life, at the end of two weeks, your T levels will be low enough to feel bad. So injecting 125 every week would be a lot better.

Refer to the protocol for injections sticky for info re hCG and management of estradiol. T alone is not a good plan.


#15

I think cortisol and testosterone have an inverse metabolism relationship or something like that - low cortisol = high t metabolism / high cortisol = lower t metabolism.

I am starting to believe that you don’t need arimidex IF you manage your cortisol/thyroid and if you manage your T appropriately for your personal genetic optimal level.

the reason most people need arimidex is that they are pushing their T levels too high and are trying to overcompensate for some other deficiency or issue (like problems with cortisol or Thyroid).

I believe that if you manage your cortisol, thyroid, etc., and testosterone then you should never need Arimidex to control aromatase.

I personally went from 2mg Arimidex DAILY (when taking 50mg DHEA daily, 200mg T-Cyp weekly, no cortisol, 90mg Armour daily)
to
NO arimidex (no DHEA, 30mg T-Cyp EOD, 20mg Hydrocortisone, 30mg T-3 only)


#16

I think cortisol and testosterone have an inverse metabolism relationship or something like that - low cortisol = high t metabolism / high cortisol = lower t metabolism.

I am starting to believe that you don’t need arimidex IF you manage your cortisol/thyroid and if you manage your T appropriately for your personal genetic optimal level.

the reason most people need arimidex is that they are pushing their T levels too high and are trying to overcompensate for some other deficiency or issue (like problems with cortisol or Thyroid).

I believe that if you manage your cortisol, thyroid, etc., and testosterone then you should never need Arimidex to control aromatase.

I personally went from 2mg Arimidex DAILY (when taking 50mg DHEA daily, 200mg T-Cyp weekly, no cortisol, 90mg Armour daily)
to
NO arimidex (no DHEA, 30mg T-Cyp EOD, 20mg Hydrocortisone, 30mg T-3 only)


#17

My E2 is 39 and thats without and trt type supplements. Another board recommends looking at low cortisol if E2 is high as normally cortisol regulates T but whe cortisol is low E2 regulates T by increasing blood levels of the girly hormone. Some recommend hydrocort supplementation 5-10mg in the morning and another 5mg in the afternoon and at these doses theres no negative feedback response, also pregnenolone is used to increase cortisol and regulate T levels and bring down E2. High E2 can be a sign of adrenal fatigue. This is info from another trt site.

cheers!!!


#18

“recommends looking at low cortisol if E2 is high as normally cortisol regulates T but whe cortisol is low E2 regulates T by increasing blood levels of the girly hormone.”

That circular argument is not going anywhere.


#19

LOL KSMAN, i think we agree that cortisol down regulates T but if not enough cortisol, E steps in to down regulate T. So has anyone improves there T and E2 with hydrocort supplementation. That should give us an answer. And the stuff im rehashing is from another board and my poor little brain is struggling to understand what to do. Fuck it, 500mg of testosterone and 400mg of deca per week with some arimidex should fix the problem.lol


#20

[quote]offroadracer wrote:
Thanks guys, I am going in Dec for my blood work to see where I am at. I know my Test is low, but I am almost positive my Doc won’t prescibe me Test(inj.) most likely a cream and a follow up in 3 months. Even if he did prescibe Test, I wouldn’t pay those prices when I can get it myself. Sust450 by syntrop or Cyp200 by Axio are the only test available domestically for me.

So I wanted to find out which might be better, but as far as price the Sust is cheaper due to the length a vial will last me compared to the Cyp. I plan on starting out at 100mg a week injected 2x a week, and keep getting my blood checked, letting the Doc think I am just using the cream. My goal is to get my TT above 700. I will adjust as needed.[/quote]
Don’t know what country you are in, but prescibed testosterone in the US is the cheapest possible TRT you can get. 100mg per week divide into 2 shots a week will easily get you into the range you want or higher.
The reason people give a bad rap to sustanon for TRT is because if you use it as it was originally intended it has been found to be very ineffective. The purpose of the multiple blend of esters was to produce a testoserone that could be injected once a month and if you use it as intended (once per month), you will not achieve stable testosterone levels.
So from thar perspective cypionate or enanthate will deliver better results.


#21

is sustanon available in the USA, in australia it seems to be the main treatment for low T but there is also T enthanate 250 available as well, which use to be recommended as once every 4 weeks. ANd yes i remember reading a few years ago how sustanon was used monthly but thats why i wonder if sustanon used fortnightly would give good results. this being a US based forum, if sustanon isnt common use for TRT is it just preferable to use cyp as its most commonly used where sust isnt and not readily available.

One thing i would like to know from someone who has experience with sust, enth or compounded T cream(not much more expensive then the other Ts mentioned), which would u go for as i think these 3 will be my options and my doc is quite good with my suggestions.

Early days yet like 3-4days on dhea50mg/preg50mg compound cream and arimidex(on for 6 weeks1/2mg twice a week) 1/2mg 3 times a week now, but starting to feel better, more tests in 6-8 weeks so maybe able to avoid adding T for awhile , although talking to my doc he seems open to the idea of T but wants to see how we go on the above protocol.

cheers!!!

cheers!!!


#22

Danny: Refer to the protocol for injections sticky for info re benefits of frequent injections. Your seeking an injection protocol that is every two weeks is lame. If you want to discuss your personal situation, you need your own thread and keep using that same thread. You are hijacking this one.

T cyp and T eth are interchangeable.


#23

sorry for the hijack, just thought it was relevent to the thread, but will start new threads in future.