T Nation

Susta+Deca+Dbol?


#1

Hi
here my stat:
28years old, 3year of serious(natural) training.
by know im 92kg (1.72cm tall) at about 18%bf.

i would like to get more LBM with the help of AAS...

i would like to have your feedback about the following cycle

week
1-2 30mg dbol ed
1-12 500mg susta+500deca (250 twice x week)
5-15 40mg nolva


#2

  • weeks 5-15 40 mg nolva ED?!!! ummmm unless you are a breast cancer patient, please rethink this.

-this cycle is not structured well at all......

  • 2 week kickstart of d-bol is a little too short. go with 4 weeks.

-the sust and deca have pretty similar half lives......but your PCT(do you even know what that is?!) start time is so wrong....you will definately crash, and crash HARD post cyce. wait a full 4 weeks before starting PCT.

-unless you are willing to shoot EOD..forget about sust, and go with a single estered test like enan or cyp.

-12 weeks for a first cycle is a little on the long side IMO...especially with the gear you are running, you are basically on for 16 weeks. an 8 weeker will get you the gains you are looking for. consider frontloading to speed up the process.

i'd like to add that i do not think you should do ANYTHING until you have spent many more hours learning about AAS.


#3

The big thing that stands out is the nolva starting in week 5. What is the reasoning?
You mentioned LBM. I'm guessing that you want to reduce the 18% bodyfat. If thats the case, I would start the nolva first and make sure your diet is right--Deca will bloat your ass if your not careful (speaking from experience). You might want to consider Primo or Parabolan over Deca since your looking for a leaner look.
I would stretch the 2 weeks of dbol to 5 weeks.
Sust will also suppress your test production. With that in mind, clomid must be considered at the end.

I would goggle some more before extracting from the vial.

By no means am I telling you what to do, just some thoughts bro.

Best of luck.

JW


#4

i post it just because it sounds weird to me. i have no experience with aas. but i have read a lot. and that cycle sound so strange. but it comes from a doctor... so i thought to post it to have your opinion.

i know what is PCT :).
i have read really a lot about that.

why EOD? sust usually is used twice x week... as a depot it has longer release time..

thanks for the advice... i was started with a 8weeker... then go to the doctor and he told me to change to that cycle...

oh be sure of that.
i hope that doctor can help me, but i believe it is better to improv my own skill.

thanx


#5

thanks for the advice.
im not looking for a leaner look.
i just want to bulk by know.

and don't worry :slight_smile: im here to learn so feel free to spoke :wink:


#6
 Two of the esters of Sust (propionate and phenylpropionate) are short acting and therefore need to be injected at least EOD.


 Do not rely on your doctor to set up a cycle for you especially if he is a GP.  Do your own research, you will be much happier that you did.

#7

WOAH, WOAH, WOAH!

What about the isocaproate and decanoate? These two esters stay in your system a long time and allow the sust to gradually taper out of the system in around twenty eight days. Due to the half life of these two compounds taking a shot of sust every other day is going to result in some pretty nasty side effects around the three week make.

Think more reading is in order!
lol


#8

Phenylpropionate and propionate do have rather short half-lives compared to most used other esters at 4 to 5 days if I remember correctly.

Still, injecting at an interval of 4 to 5 days will allow you to reach a steady state after 12 to 20 days (around that). Injecting more frequently such as twice a week or EOD even, will reach a steady state earlier. At which point, it wouldn't theorically be needed anymore.

And like Steel said, the other two guys stick around for a long time with like 9-10 days and two week half-lifes.

So injection wise, wouldn't you need to determine the overall half-life of the injected solution, which be definition would invariably be above 4 to 5 days and therefore would not require EOD injections.

AlexH.


#9

Nasty side effects huh? You're wrong. The ester chain on those actually allow a slower release, therefore not building insane blood levels at your predicted 3 week mark. Back your truck up bro. You can shoot long esters E3D and be perfectly on point. Sust and Omna should be shot EOD. EOD!.. EOD!!!!!

In fact, I crunched the numbers on the infamous PCT calculator, and around day 19, you reach an average level that will be sustained for the duration of your cycle until you stop. Keep in mind, because of the Decanoate, and to a lesser extent the Isocaproate, you need to start PCT approx 30 days after the last shot.. This is why it's better to close out longer estered runs with short esters..

now please, go spread peace and love throughout your countryside.


#10

Incorrect.

we are cycling steroids for bodybuilding and performance purposes.....not HRT. therefore, to take advantage of the short esters found in sust, it MUST be injected EOD, at the very bare minimum E3D. this is pretty common knowledge and widely accepted when using sust in AAS cycles.

what "nasty side effects" are you talking about? by injecting EOD you maintain much more stable blood levels....which in turn REDUCES sides. not to mention that any other aromatization sides associated with testosterone can be easily controlled by using an AI or SERM. and furthermore, a "shot" of sust, or 1ml/1cc/250mg EOD only works out to somewhere in the mid 800's for mg/week....hardly over the top dosages.

ubi already touched on this.......just wanted to chime in and say that more reading is definately in order...for YOU!


#11

I think pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics would disagree with you on the need for such frequent dosing considering rather large therapeutic index of testosterone and other AAS.

If Sust was only containing the two short acting esters, you could go for EOD because blood levels would dip 25% by 48 hours vs waiting until it reached 50% concentration by day 4 or 5.

However, they presence of esters have twice and thrice the half-life of the shorter ones, you would really not need EOD, hell, once a week would get you a drop of 25 % of the long acting ester and nearing 50% of isocaproate (of course the 2 short acting ones would be down 75%).

Still, last time I check the Sust Amps ''contain'' more than 1.5 times more longer esters than shorter ones.

Personally, I think its bad combining to put short acting esters with long acting ones, because like it was said above, to ensure stable levels of the short one you would go EOD, but then you loose the adavantage that the long acting ones provide in not having to go EOD or even E(3-4-5)D.

However, per medical reasons, it allows for one prescription and for rapid gains (anabolic and androgenic) and since patient suck at being complient you understand the purposes behing it but still, for HRT purposes I question the real usefulness of this time-release stack since you go for injections E2W or more in some instances.

Overall, you could inject EOD until you've reached steady state levels of the longest acting ester which would be between 45 to 60 days after which it probably is not worth it from an inconvenieance/benefit perspective.

AlexH

Like it was said above a given quantity of drug spread out on multiple dose or through Extended Release methods will reduce side effects, simple pharmacokinetics.


#12

the sust blend is:
100 decanoate
60 isocaporate
60 phenylpropinate
30 propinate

with 90 mg tied up in short acting esters, it is wise to inject more frequently. why on earth would you inject once or even twice per week and lose the benefit of the prop/phenylprop....and have your blood levels go up and down like a yo-yo.

theraputic indexes should be used for that purpose...theraputic dosing...not in a real world, cycling for muscle building purposes scenario.

pretty much every board on the net disagrees with you....and that is from real world results. not a textbook or a dosing index.

again, members here are generally cycling for bodybuilding purposes...not HRT or any other theraputic reason. the argument presented is sound, but out of context.


#13

I understand what your saying, but the P and PP ester has an half-life of some 4 odd days. So twice a weeks implies never going under 50% of concentration of those esters, but with higher concentration in the first 2 days than would be achieved with EOD injections.

Now what would be necessary for an answer that is beyond anecdotal evidence we would need to no if it his better to have a more or less constant level for 2 days straight such as 750 units vs going from 1000 units to 500 units over those 2 days average 750 units for muscle building and strenght increament. What I mentionned earlier was the also that injecting EOD is far more of a pain than twice weekly

As for the internet community disagreeing with me and real world results, I would only bring up that we've all seen our share of truths and advice that is not based on anything especially when it concerns things related to science especially in gray or shady areas that lack significant amount of research.

I don't want to sound like one of thoses bitches on these board that will not admit when he's wrong, its just that most of the information I've read on this formulation is indicates that it would be injected once E5D or more, even going to every once every 2 weeks. So I do understand the notion of maximizing the short esters, but would there really be any significant difference considering the presence of a large supraphysiological dose of test.

Then again, since it's his doc that's ''prescribing'' the cycle, he could simply have gone with the DBol, a long acting test, the Deca and winstrol depot if he really wanted to stick himself EOD.

Anyway,
AlexH.


#14

thanx for the info. i know that but i believe taht a twice x week IM was sufficient.

again thanx for the good advice, by the way what is a GP (sorry my english is not so good..)?


#15

A GP is a General Practitioner or a Family Doctor.

However, considering that doctors, whatever their specialty, have no training on how to use or cycle steroids for performance/bodybuilding, a GP that reads up on steroids might probably know more than any specialist.

AlexH