T Nation

Sust / Halo / Winnie Depot?


#1

Hi guys. I posted here previously asking about test and being skeptical of it's ability to create 'lasting gains' and basically just being a dumb ass. Test is the shit. Thanks for the good advice. Sorry for being obtuse.

So now I've done several cycles of test and/or deca going as high as 600 test E + 400 deca per week. Also a few 30 day cycles of var 40-60 mg/day. I know I read a lot of skepticism regarding var and my two cents is that if you can afford it it's pretty good.

265/29yo/6'2"/20% bf.

I'm a combat athlete and not a body builder. Basically I'm more than strong enough but I would really like to do something about my body fat which is becoming more of an issue as I reach higher and higher levels of competition. I don't eat GREAT but I'm on a reduced carb diet that's working and I figure a good cycle could only help things. I've lost about 20 pounds but I don't know how much of that was bloat from the cycle and how much was fat. A lot of it was fat though.

The proposal:

440mg Sustanon per week (125 EOD)
30mg Halotestin ED for 30 days
50mg Winstrol ED for 40 days
0.25mg Adex as needed
250IU HCG starting in week 3

I plan on running the test for 14 weeks and my question is when to add the winnie and halo? It will be my first time with either and I don't want to run them concurrently. Also, I should say that I am interested in halo for two reasons. I want to see what it does as a fat burner but I also want to get familiarized with it for consideration as a strength and aggression aide during competitions at a later time.

Thanks!


#2

SO, here's my $.02 from everything I've read (which is a decent amount), together with some personal experience

Diet is more important than drugs you said "I don't eat great". If you want to hit your goals, start eating great. If you don't know how, ask. I had to do this myself recently. You're only stupid if you don't ask a relevant question.

Second, I don't want to do the whole "diet before drugs" lecture, so I will ASSUME that before you cycle, you will get your diet in check.

As for the cycle:

Halo is probably a decent drug for you. It increases VO2 max, as per at least one study I've read, and it will increase aggression. It is relatively hepatoxic, though. I've personally used it and been quite happy with it.

Winstrol: Oral or Depot? if the former, you should probably consider a nice long break between halo and winny. My understanding is that they are both pretty hepatoxic.

Adex dose seems to be dependent on aromatizable dose and person. .25/day would be a little light for me.

Sust: people rail against it, but you're shooting eod, so whatever. Just wondering why not enth or cyp?

And how long is this cycle?

PCT?


#3

It's winstrol depot. I do know how to eat right. Structuring my life around making smoothies and little snacks isn't going to happen. I work and I lift and I train. I prep my own food. I'm content to lose the weight slowly with only an alright diet. Nobody's perfect.

I've got nolva for PCT. 0.25 Adex EOD or E3D has always worked in the past. I notice some nip sensitivity, dose adex for a week or two. I know it's light but I have ZERO gyno and any more adex than that kills my libido. I guess I'm lucky since that shit is $$$.

I'm just interested in trying the test blend since I've done E and C before.

The cycle will last 14 weeks (maybe 16??). I want to add 6 weeks of Winnie and 4 weeks of halo in there, so I can separate the hepatoxic compounds by at least a few weeks.

Any ideas on why one or the other would be smarter to take at the beginning or the end of the Test cycle?


#4

Diet: I will beat a dead horse once here. You will get better results for fat-loss with a spot on diet and no drugs than a so-so diet and drugs. Really.

As for sust v TE or TC: test is test. Sust is just a pain to use in order to keep blood levels stable. Also, that long acting undecanoate ester is looong. Go on roidcalc and you'll see how long you'll stay at suppressive levels.

14 weeks is also way long in my opinion. The trend seems to be (on this board) towards higher dose, shorter cycles. They seem to be easier to recover from.

Halo v Winny when: well, I've never taken winny. Common drug, I know, but its never fit in with my goals. So no help here. Halo: don't think about it as a physique enhancing drug for you. You are carrying too much fat to really see the "muscle hardening". Also, it doesn't have a high propensity to bind to the AR, despite it's androgenic rep, so there will be no "direct" fat burning. Think of it as a performance enhancer. It will allow you to lift more, be more aggressive in the gym, and probably train for longer.

My thought with a cycle this long would be to run the halo early, and use it to help you over-reach training-wise, and then back off a little during that break in between the test and winny, and allow the test to help you super-compensate. Like maybe run a base cycle of the smolov squat routine with the halo.


#5

Im with OTS1 on the dieting here...utmost importance!

Im actually going to give a different angle on the cycle though to what you listed.

Im similar stats to you.

5'11.5, 270lb, 20% bf and am on a cut cycle now.

Winstrol/stanazol will burn hardly any fat off me almost not noticable I probably wont bother with it again.

However, drugs which bind tightly at the AR do seem to (tren, test...eq seems to somewhat help) especially tren...Tren seems to burn more stubborn fat (gut, inner thy, tricep) for me in short timeframe (like 3 weeks noticable) which is just remarkable!

BUT without low carb diet, cardio...I achieve nothing.

I basically cause fat loss with my diet...and then increase the rate of fat loss (or regulate) with my cardio while still slightly increasing muscle mass and strength.

With you having AI's on hand to stop bloat and liking test...if I was you i would run test alone or maybe test/eq.

You will feel great, your workouts would be fantastic and I believe your fat loss will be accelerated if all else is in tact.

Winny can:
kill joints, kidney pain, liver pain, unwell feeling, cramps and I would not like to use it plus halo in a cycle thats for sure...(i havnt used halo but from what ive heard, i wouldnt like to use it with winny).

All I achieve with winny at my size is maybe retention of strength/slight loss of mass if I inject 85+ mg/day
(which is a lot) and I will feel like CRAP in 3 weeks.

Orally...less results

Without liver protectants or zero alcohol I wouldnt do it at all.


#6

I may be wrong but I think think a lot of what you lost post cycle may have been bloat.

My last cycle i was up to 283 and dropped to 255 post cycle and after 5 weeks of winny.

Strength was pretty much the same but overall size had dropped which tells me intramuscular and subq water lost (some muscle was lost too).

Fat under skin decreased slightly but not dramatically and definition increased only slightly (maybe I lost 2%bf).

I have lost more fat in the last 4 weeks alone than whole last cycle.

How much did you want to drop your bodyfat?


#7

Funny you bring that up smith: I think I look best a week or two after a cycle, when the estrogen is no longer causeing the subq water retention.


#8

Maybe two cycles, one with halo and one with Win or Eq. We'll see...