Surge Workout Fuel & Cardio

Sup.

I plan on doing a 6 week run utilizing a 10-10-10 HIT protocol twice a week (M & F).

And anyways, one day a week (W) I planned on either doing a Max-OT Cardio session (for anyone not familiar, 14 minutes of recumbent bike at varying tempo/intensity throughout) or just a simple outdoor run. The purpose of this session is not geared toward fat loss per se, rather it is there for cardio-vascular benefit and increased insulin sensitivity & blood flow.

So my question is, are there any concerns with going Hypoglycemic when using SWF? I have seen this discussed somewhat by @mertdawg (the possibility of hypoglycemia). I rise at 3 and train by 4/415, and don’t want to do it fasted.

If SWF is a good choice for this, how would one go about loading it, for ksay, a jog/run? I don’t exactly want to carry a bottle with me. Would a half or full Finibar be better suited?

This is all splitting hairs perhaps, but I work 12 hours shifts at a quarry plant and have little room for error with energy levels. I’d nix the CV training since I walk and climb catwalks a lot on top of other tedious labor, but as I mentioned, I’d like to strength my CV system more intentionally.

Thanks for reading.

Edit: Added tags.

@TrainForPain because you’re a helpful dude.
@T3hPwnisher because I’m inspired by “Feast, Famine, Ferocity”; I’ll be experimenting with 1 week Famine, 2 Feast, cycled twice, but with moderate protein, low fat and high carbs (contrary to my usual diet actually).
@atp_4_me because I’ve seen you post a lot about CV training and find the info and perspectives interesting.

2 Likes

Ha - I like the little bios, and thanks for the tag!

Personally, I don’t think that duration is long enough to really get what you want out of Surge. I also don’t think there’s really a hypoglycemia concern, but I could be wrong there.

I like the idea of half a Fini-bar prior to the run, because I think you’ll “feel” less hungry, which is probably actually more important than actually any concerns for that type/ duration of workout.

A third option, if you’re interested in trying it out, would be to try a serving of Mag-10 before you run. It doesn’t take a ton of water, so I don’t think you’d be all sloshing around, and it’s purpose-built for recovery. It’s more heavily weighted on the protein side, so you might get a little more benefit out of the cardio re: your insulin sensitivity goals (that’s probably a stretch, though, it probably doesn’t really matter).

2 Likes

No problem man, hell I appreciate you taking the time out of your day.

So I’m doing this from my phone and it’s a bit of an ass pain, anyways:

Perhaps Surge is an overkill on the cardio (maybe fasted is even fine here, although Max OT cardio is suppose to be quite intense), and I wonder if it’s even overkill on the 10-10-10 sessions, since those are 6-9 exercises, so a VERY brief session. Even 30-10-30 challenges were no more than 16-17 minutes toward the end of the program.

Currently what I’m doing is rising @ 300am, eating 4 oz of lean steak w 4 eggs @ 330-345, training at home 430-500. This works well for performance, but the timeline is tight and becoming tedious. Not a grandiose issue when deadlifting in my living room, but add a commute to the gym and switch to a higher intensity training tool and things change. Enter the convenience of highly processed powders with a 30 second prep time!

I have toyed with the idea of using a FB across the board and nixing the SWF, or simpler yet, a couple scoops of whey with some peanut butter.

My concern with the rebound Hypo concerns of course from not eating for 9 hours or so, having a high dose of leucine w the HBCD and then training intensely. I think there could be some concern with the liver taking up those carbohydrates and the insulin release dropping blood glucose further, effectively accomplishing nothing good by then training. My understanding May very well be wrong though.

I’m a classic case of “I’ve read too much information and now I know nothing.”

1 Like

I’ve used Surge for a couple of years now. I think, when it comes to cardio, it depends on the intensity. If I were doing a track workout - such as 600m resets or a 1 mile max effort run - I’ll use Surge. If I’m doing an easy Airdyne recovery workout, weight vest walk, or easy jog, I’m probably skipping it. I’m not familiar enough with the method you list, but hopefully the above strategy helps.

1 Like

I can’t imagine doing this!

This was the main thing that drove me to Surge in the first place; I hated being hungry in the gym, but was simply not going to eat in the mornings. Then the improved workouts were so undeniable I stuck with it.

These may well be valid concerns, I can just say I haven’t experienced them. I eat my last meal after my kids’ practices, so somewhere between 6:30 and 8:30pm depending on what’s going on. I get up at 5 and am probably training around 5:30 or so, with just Surge, and I feel totally fine. I’ve recently started having Mag-10 after, but for years I didn’t eat again until a mixed meal maybe 90 minutes after the gym (shower, get to work, etc. first), and I never felt poorly/ hypoglycemic.

I haven’t done these, so I can’t comment from experience, but folks loved using Surge during this Ellington Darden HIT experiment a year or two back. I remember @RT_Nomad, an experienced bodybuilder, had a run with it; he could speak more intelligently than me.

Dude’s a stud, so whatever he says is a good route here.

I appreciate your perspective. I’ve only used SWF once, and that for Dr Darden’s Extreme HIT (ran the program as written except I used the Surge Protocol instead of the outlined Plazma/Mag-10 protocol, awesome results btw).

Anyways, I’ve literally avoided traditional cardio for… uh a few years now, aside from walking 15-25k steps per day. I don’t know if it will truly benefit me to go harder, but I think there is a possibility that there are benefits that I am leaving on the table, and I enjoy the hard breathing.

Max OT Cardio is from the training program popularized by AST (Paul Daulio?), Jeff Willet & Skip Lacour. Basically 14 minutes of intervals on a recumbent bike, not much guideline other than you should be working hard for the time frame (specifically on the bike to remove any variables such as balance, coordination, skill).

Truth be told, I will probably be doing some hard running intervals in the early AM, or possibly some hill sprints. I don’t want to dig into training recovery too hard a la sprints though. Will see. Really just wanting to improve my heart and arteries and lungs.

It’s working surprisingly well. The protein meal has me feeling hot and it does not sit heavy or slosh. Deadlifts, dbl kettlebell presses, thick barbell curls on Monday or Tuesday, Bent over row, Zercher sq and floor press Thursday or Friday. 3-4 work sets each. Pint of raw milk with raw duck eggs post.

BUT I do miss the grungy hole in the wall old school gym I go to.

This is really good to know. Which brings me to…

Hopefully he will chime in!

My only experience with this Surge formula is with Darden’s Extreme HIT 30-10-30 program. I replaced the outline Plazma/Mag-10 protocol with the M3 Surge Protocol and slapped on 20 pounds, over 10 of which I kept after discontinuing the high SWF intake. Yeah there may have been a little fat but I crushed my testing numbers post challenge so IDGAF.

I enjoy @RT_Nomad ‘s posts when I find them.

Yeah for sure. 600m resets? I mean wtf. Not even in my dreams. But joking aside, thanks @antiquity. I may ditch the Max OT conditioning and opt for something outside such as a good paced run or hill sprints. I think a nice paced run for a mile or 2 may cover it.

2 Likes

As I understand SWF the leucine needs to not be competing with other amino acids to be its most effective. I would take a full serving of the SWF as soon as I awakened. Then 20 minutes later start your workout, while sipping a second serving of SWF and pound down any SWF left at the end of your workout. About a half hour later I would eat your steak and eggs.

I wish that I had SWF when I was competing. I like that it has no caffeine and still gives my workout a boost. We had believed that caffeine, ephedrine, and nicotine (Nicorette gum) helped to spare muscle glycogen, thus burning some fat. The problem was that the body down regulates quickly on all of these. I would rotate them through the week. When I was on a six day split (like PPL), I couldn’t use those stimulants for every workout. SWF would have covered that and could have spaced out the stimulants.

2 Likes

That is quite a testimonial

@atp_4_me because I’ve seen you post a lot about CV training and find the info and perspectives interesting.

Howie,

Unless you’re a diabetic, worrying about glucose blood levels is not necessary. The human body by means of insulin and glucagon and the CNS control the blood glucose levels without any human intervention. How grateful we should be!

Intense interval cardio targets glycogen. Intense cardio intervals burn off limited glycogen storage. This allows the muscle to add additional glucose from the bloodstream into the muscle. Fast twitch muscles contain much glycogen. Fast twitch muscles are recruited much more during intense cardio intervals. This glycogen is linked glucose molecules, which are broken down to lactate. The release of lactate and hydrogen ions in excess cause the infamous burn feeling in the muscles.
The resultant lactate is further processed for additional energy… ATP.

And the beat goes on! Brief intense exercise decreases hunger due to ramping up energy supply!

I

1 Like