T Nation

Surge - Reality Check?

I know that in theory, Surge is amazing. However, in reality, how different is it than drinking say, protein powder mixed with fruit juice, or perhaps even just a can of evaporated milk? I know the lab tests will say there is a difference in hormonal response and all that, but does this actually amount to more pounds of muscle over months of training?

What I’m trying to get at is yes, I agree that Surge is perhaps the most optimal thing you can take post workout. But what if the difference between “good” and “optimal” only amounts to a few ounces of muscle over many months of training? Any thoughts?

I don’t have the answer you’re looking for ie solid proof. But I will say when I take Surge post workout as opposed to the whole protein/carb drink I’m less sore/recovery more quickly.

All I know is that it makes a significant difference in my recovery. In fact, I can easily tell the following morning when I haven’t have Biotest Surge after training the previous day.

Now I just have to make sure that I keep enough on hand in case it’s out of stock again in the near future.

Did you listen to the double-tap with JB? They go into this in detail. But you do bring up a good point about the whole taking the best versus like milk or whatever. I for one, need all the help I can get!

Well for one thing fruit juice, which has lots of fructose, isn’t going to give you the big insulin spike that is the single most important reason for using Surge or any other PWO shake.

That said, I would be curious to know how real world results would differ between Surge and a DIY homade concoction of glucose, maltodextrin and whey. You would at least be getting the huge insulin spike, the right carbs and fast-digesting protein. I used such a mix for a while before I bought Surge and got great results, it was the best improvement I’ve ever seen from a single dietary change, but I haven’t done a double-blind test comparing it to Surge.

Nick

[quote]Matonski wrote:
how different is it than drinking say, protein powder mixed with fruit juice, or perhaps even just a can of evaporated milk?[/quote]

Read the following two articles:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=FEF7539FA2750C0E4012E8C32EBBD6FE.titan?id=460833

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=FEF7539FA2750C0E4012E8C32EBBD6FE.titan?id=462147

i agree with the quicker recovery. no question. i think thta’s cause Surge digests so easily you hardly have to wait to get on eating ! yeah post workout nutrition is nothing new at all, and people have been living without Surge for ever. and if surge went away (as in the recent o.o.s. episode) we’d still workout, eat, and recover. there’s plenty of stuff to eat and i love that. i love eating ! but y’know sometimes you need to eat alot. alot. and food just doesn’t digest quickly enough to eat all the calories in the time you need to eat them. don’t get enough calories and you’re lagging recovery . might tke another day. again that’s nothing new. but Surge is new . its the cutting edge in the evolution of the wheel we call post workout nutrition. Surge is the marvel mystery oil of the workout world. Surge is so damn convienient and versatile. Surge is ez to open, Surge is ez to mix, and Surge is unbelievably ez to drink and clean up. it’s totally worth the price of admission for me. still i’ll admit there are times when i get a little teary eyed with nostalgia and long for a nice meatshake or a turkey pineapple half&half malted egg smoothie. but i get over it and so should you. oh and my girlfriend says Surge makes my jizz taste awesome.

The worlds experts figured that proper PWO nutrition would yield around 4lbs/year. This was using only 6g of essential amino acids though, and doesn’t take into account proper pre workout nutrition, or multiple post workout drinks, which each double the effect.

Cheers

Do you have a reference for that David?

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Do you have a reference for that David?[/quote]

It’s a “personal communication” but need to I keep my profs’ names out of the spotlight.

I wouldn’t take the number too literally; I mean, how many different factors could you possibly take into account? Too many.

Cheers

[quote]David Barr wrote:
The worlds experts figured that proper PWO nutrition would yield around 4lbs/year.

David,

I know it is a rough estimate, but is the four pounds compared to no post-workout nutrition, solid food, etc.?

Also, how effective is grape juice at spiking insulin?

Thanks.

[quote]Wideguy wrote:
I don’t have the answer you’re looking for ie solid proof. But I will say when I take Surge post workout as opposed to the whole protein/carb drink I’m less sore/recovery more quickly.[/quote]

Same here.

[quote]Stern3657 wrote:

Also, how effective is grape juice at spiking insulin?

Thanks.
[/quote]

I don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that fruit/fruit juice is not ideal PWO. And the answer will be the same no matter how many times the question is asked.

The GI is not as high as glucose.

Fructose is not used to replenish muscle glycogen stores.

If you want a cheap PWO spike:

Just. Buy. Glucose.

It’s like $1/pound and easily available. You can also get maltodextrin for about $1.50/pound.

Nick

I am new to Surge, I just finished my 1st tub. And when taken half serving half-way during my workout, i felt like i have more energy to finish up. I have to stop myself from adding sets or exercises to the workout. I love it!!!

[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
The GI is not as high as glucose.

Fructose is not used to replenish muscle glycogen stores.

If you want a cheap PWO spike:

Just. Buy. Glucose.

It’s like $1/pound and easily available. You can also get maltodextrin for about $1.50/pound.

Nick[/quote]

So, if I am tight w/ money and workout 5 days a week, can I take Surge for 3 days (Mon,Tue,Wed) and Glucose for 2 days a week. Also, what does maltodextrin do?

Thanks!

[quote]David Barr wrote:
cycomiko wrote:
Do you have a reference for that David?

It’s a “personal communication” but need to I keep my profs’ names out of the spotlight.

I wouldn’t take the number too literally; I mean, how many different factors could you possibly take into account? Too many.

Cheers[/quote]
Seeing as the origonal mention was 6g EAA, then its likely to be from tipton who has mentioned before IF there is likely to be an effect from a supplemental source, it will be very small, and potentially take ~2years to extract the effect out from a large training group. 4lb a year is a massive increase, at least compared to the available research.

[quote]getbig wrote:
The_Incubator wrote:
The GI is not as high as glucose.

Fructose is not used to replenish muscle glycogen stores.

If you want a cheap PWO spike:

Just. Buy. Glucose.

It’s like $1/pound and easily available. You can also get maltodextrin for about $1.50/pound.

Nick

So, if I am tight w/ money and workout 5 days a week, can I take Surge for 3 days (Mon,Tue,Wed) and Glucose for 2 days a week. Also, what does maltodextrin do?

Thanks![/quote]

Sure you CAN… I mean, do whatever you can afford.

Maltodextrin is a glucose polymer, meaning one maltodextrin molecule is composed of a bunch of glucose. It has a higher GI than glucose and is absorbed faster.

Glucose and maltodextrin are the ingredients responsible for Surge’s insulin-spiking effect.

No secrets here, this is all covered in Berardi’s post-workout nutrition articles. They basically tell you all you need to know to make Surge. The catch is that you’re not going to find whey hydrolysate on the open market, you’re not going to have the flavor, and if you want BCAAs the cost is high enough that you might as well buy Surge.

Nick

[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
Stern3657 wrote:

Also, how effective is grape juice at spiking insulin?

Thanks.

I don’t know how many times it needs to be pointed out that fruit/fruit juice is not ideal PWO. And the answer will be the same no matter how many times the question is asked.

The GI is not as high as glucose.

Fructose is not used to replenish muscle glycogen stores.

If you want a cheap PWO spike:

Just. Buy. Glucose.

It’s like $1/pound and easily available. You can also get maltodextrin for about $1.50/pound.

Nick[/quote]

Nick,

I understand that fruit juice is not ideal PWO. However, the point of this thread was, I believe, to attempt to quantify the difference between optimal PWO nutrition and sub-optimal PWO nutrition. My question was in that spirit. Sorry if this has been beaten to death but, in the future, please feel free to not respond to any of my questions that are beneath you.

What about hydrolyzed rice syrup? Any tangible benefits over maltodextrin?

[quote]Stern3657 wrote:

Nick,

I understand that fruit juice is not ideal PWO. However, the point of this thread was, I believe, to attempt to quantify the difference between optimal PWO nutrition and sub-optimal PWO nutrition. My question was in that spirit. Sorry if this has been beaten to death but, in the future, please feel free to not respond to any of my questions that are beneath you.[/quote]

I agree, and I think it is a great topic for discussion. I’m curious about it myself, as I used a homebrew PWO mix for a while I was very happy with the results, although I am now a Surge consumer.

The reason I’m getting a little testy is that I just don’t understand the obsession with fruit juice, condensed milk, honey and other things that simply should not be part of the discussion when talking about effective PWO nutrition.

I totally understand and respect people’s desires to save money and tinker… but let’s at least talk about reasonable substitutions. Why this obsession with fruit juice when glucose is actually cheaper and more effective? I’m no PhD myself, but these conclusions can easily be drawn by reading the articles that are freely available on this site.

I just feel like a lot of these discussions start like “I know this is wrong and has nothing to do with the guidelines set forth in Dr. Berardi’s articles, but would someone please validate my desire to do XXX post-workout?” There’s sub-optimal and then there’s just pointless and wrong: How about a can of coke PWO? How about tofu? How about a pint of heavy whipping cream and no protein or carbs? For the love of God, let’s at least get CLOSE!

Nick