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Surge Issues - Am I Using Too Much?

I just started the Scrawny to Brawny workout (and diet) program. At 6’4", 215 lbs, I’m not exactly scrawny, but I’ve always been more of the tall lanky type than muscular.

The book recommends 1 protein shake before, during and after working out, with 0.8g carbs and 0.4g protein per kg of body mass in each shake. That comes to just under 80g carbs and 40g protein for me.

So I’m taking 3 scoops of Surge in 20oz water before, during and after my workout. The last shake also has 5g creatine. That’s 60oz water and 1200+ calories over a 2 hour period, but that’s what the book says…

I feel fine after the first two, but after my 3rd I feel like crap. Nauseous, bloated, not thinking clearly, and definitely not hungry for at least 4 hours after the shake.

I don’t like feeling nauseous, to say the least, but the not hungry bit is a real problem because according to the diet protocol I should be eating another ~600 calories about 2.5 hours after working out, and so far I haven’t been able to stomach that meal.

Is this an issue with lactose intolerance? I’ve read that whey hydrolysate does have some lactose in it.

Or am I just trying to cram too many calories down my throat at once?

Any feedback or advice would be appreciated.

I’ve also had issues with my appetite when increasing my Surge intake. I usually just stick to half a serving during and the other half as I’m walking out of the gym. Sometimes on days when I squat or deadlift I’ll have a few more scoops when I get home to help with recovery.

If you want to stick to the 3-shake format I would just use 2 scoops per shake. That still gives you two full servings with appx. 90 g of carbs and 50 g of protein.

Look, I am no expert, but if you are getting nauseous and not able to eat, it’s apparent that you need to cut back on the Surge. In that case, the three shakes are counter-productive. No need in being dogmatic. You have to adapt these type of things to your own body.

Hell, if I put more than two scoops of Surge into one shake, I get a bit bloated.

Now, this is just an idea, so don’t shoot me for it.

Instead of gulping down a third serving of Surge, why not do a Metabolic Drive shake… or a whey+milk+yogurt+cottage cheese shake an hour after your workout?

And I know this may not make everyone feel good, but these things are supplements. That means supplementing real food. What is wrong with eating some chicken and rice before your workout, instead of that first serving of Surge?

[quote]entheogens wrote:
Look, I am no expert, but if you are getting nauseous and not able to eat, it’s apparent that you need to cut back on the Surge. In that case, the three shakes are counter-productive. No need in being dogmatic. You have to adapt these type of things to your own body.

Hell, if I put more than two scoops of Surge into one shake, I get a bit bloated.
[/quote]

Based on my own experience I dont think the Surge is the main problem… I think its the half gallon of water.

If I drink a half gallon of water in under an hour you can bet I’m gonna feel a little bit bloated. Not to mention he is probably drinking/eating something else as well.

9 scoops of Surge is also a hefty dose… What are you reading that you need to get 1000 calories in around your workout??

So I’d say try and cut the shakes down to 15 ounces a piece or so and see if that helps. Maybe only 2 scoops of Surge a piece as well.

When I was doing Scrawny to Brawny, I started using the before/during/after shakes, and I found myself gaining more fat that I wanted. I switched to just before & after shakes with just water during the workout.

Sometimes my pre-workout nutrition is just dired fruit & nuts, or a Starbucks Frappuccino with some whey powder added to up the protein. The POST workout shake is probably the most important, so do your Surge then.

Like you said, at your weight you are not really scrawny. I think the S2B diet is really designed for the guy who can’t seem to gain wieght despite eating everything in sight. That was me from age 15-30, but that wasn’t me at 40.

During the year prior to doing S2B I shed 30 pounds of fat and became scrawny again. But once I started eating more and doing the 3 shake thing, the fat was too willing to come back.

It’s all about finding the right balance for your body.

60 ounces of water would make anyone feel bloated.

Couple of options:

Eliminate the “during workout” drink

–or–

Use 2 scoops and 14-16 ounces of water in each drink.

Too much water, IMO.

Surge dissolves really easily. You could put your 3 scoops in 1/2 the amount of water, and be fine.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I’m a by-the-book kind of guy, plus I’m new to this level of nutritional analysis. I’ve been the same size for the last 10 years, 210-215 lbs and 10-15% body fat, never really paid attention to nutrition other than trying to “eat healthily” and only when hungry.

Recently I decided to try to put on a bit more muscle and get a bit leaner, and this book seemed like a good plan, so I thought I’d try to do exactly as it said and see what happened. It may be time to abandon that plan, though.

Lonnie123 – I’m just following the directions in Scrawny to Brawny (see my original post for the numbers)…

kroby – I agree, these are just supplements… I’m just trying to follow along with what seems like a well-respected plan. Working through this book has impressed on me just how complicated the whole area of exercise nutrition is, so I was hoping to start out by following an established plan before trying to concoct the whole thing myself. But it may be time to strike out on my own (or at least modify the plan somewhat).

So I guess the question now is do you think that quantity of calories is needed around my workout? Given that JB does recommend it; I don’t imagine he’d suggest it if it wasn’t sensible? Maybe that’s a bad assumption.

Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions.

Also, I dont know if S2B is the right program for you in you are over 210 pounds, 6’4" or not.

I think it would be wise to invest in Precision Nutrition, or just read some of John’s stuff on here. I usually recommend and follow John’s advice, but 1200 cals in a half gallon of water for someon weighing 215 seems wildly excessive. Unless you are not gaining weight eating huge already.

[quote]Lonnie123 wrote:
Also, I dont know if S2B is the right program for you in you are over 210 pounds, 6’4" or not.

I think it would be wise to invest in Precision Nutrition, or just read some of John’s stuff on here. I usually recommend and follow John’s advice, but 1200 cals in a half gallon of water for someon weighing 215 seems wildly excessive. Unless you are not gaining weight eating huge already.[/quote]

Maybe that’s it – just not the right diet program for me. I had heard it was also a good program for people who didn’t quite fit the description, but maybe that’s not entirely true.

It does seem a crazy amount of calories, but I just assumed that was what I was supposed to do, given how well-known and respected the author is.

Thanks. I’ll look into PN.

CaptainK, John Berardi went from went from 165lbs at 8% fat to 230lbs at 12% fat over 12 months using the concepts and numbers in S2B. To put on that kind of weight (and LBM), you need to eat to support your goals. His recommendations in S2B are appropriate if you have similar goals/aspirations.

If you’re young and have high T levels and high energy (expenditure) levels on your side, I think you could get a good result following S2B. If you’re older than JB was when he put on that 51 pounds of muscle (college age) and somewhat less active, at that level of carb intake, you’re likely to gain more fat relative to the muscle you put on.

David Barr just wrote an article about Carbohydrate Tollerance. http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1628994 The long and the short of it is that some of us can handle boat loads of carbs, and others get fat when consuming a lot of carbs. Don’t be afraid to listen to your body and observe how it is responding … and modify your approach if things aren’t headed in the right direction!!!

Personally, I consume that amount of carbs and protein (CHO = 0.8g/kg; P = 0.4g/kg), but part of it is in the form of Surge and the rest is consumed an hour later in my whole food PWO meal.

Drink less water you dunce.

[quote]bransao wrote:
Drink less water you dunce.[/quote]

I am honestly confused why this didn’t occur to the OP: “My stomach hurts. Today I will drink 3 Surge shakes. But I will use less water in each of them.” If the problem wasn’t solved, then the next day, “I will cut down on the Surge.” I mean, that’s basic problem solving, right?

Also, 3 servings of Surge may or may not be a lot. Depends on how you are training. If doing something like Germany Volume Training or a really busy full body workout, it’s not too much. If doing a half-assed workout, it’d be way too much.

Of course, most research suggests the body can only process around 75 grams or so of carbs per hour. So it would seem to make more sense to space them out.

But enough of that. The OP will know soon enough: Either he’ll see results or not. In the end, that’s all that matters.

[quote]bransao wrote:
Drink less water you dunce.[/quote]

:slight_smile:

I guess that didn’t cross my mind because it didn’t actually seem like that much water. I’m sure I can drink that much water over the course of two hours on an empty stomach without feeling the same symptoms.

Also, from another point of view I could cure the nausea etc completely real easily: don’t drink the Surge. But then I wouldn’t be getting the benefit.

And since this guy (JB) who obviously knows WAY more about nutrition than I do said it was OK, (recommended it, in fact), I thought I’d try it, and only decided to ask when the various parts of his program seemed to be in conflict with one another.

So I figured I’d see what the collective brain had to say… which was, in summary, don’t be so anal about the specifics of the program. Do what seems to work with your body. Which seems like sensible advice to me.

Thanks all.