T Nation

Surge At Other Times?

I’m curious, most of us know that Surge is great for the post workout period, but what would it’s effect be during other times?

Some things to think about might include:

  1. Does it have the same anabolic effect whenever taken – even if you aren’t in a potentially catabolic state?

  2. Because it will cause an insulin spike we’d want to make sure we didn’t have excessive amounts of fats in or entering the bloodstream.

  3. If you weren’t consuming other carbohydrates or if you were going to incorporate some cardio, would the insulin spike remain brief while still effecting a boost in anabolic activity?

  4. Even under normal (PWO) conditions, is it the raised insulin level that keeps anabolic activity going or does that recede at a slower pace than the level of insulin?

I don’t have the answers, but I am going to go peruse David Barr’s article to see if it offers clues. I’d theorized that perhaps the inside of the cell would turn anabolic as insulin drove in appropriate nutrients and then not immediately notice the drop in insulin.

The Real Scoop on Post Workout Recovery Drinks
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459463

Post Workout Puzzle I
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460833

Post Workout Puzzle II
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462147

If you have some thoughts on the issue, toss 'em in.

[Ha! Edited to link to the real article, not the article I was cutting and pasting from.]

HMMM I’ll take a stab at this buddy. Give my take anyhow seeing as that is all I can do.

  1. I would say sure it wont give quite the same effect due to the fact your LBM is not primed and screaming for the nutrients like they are in the PWO window. Though it would help restore glycogen further and give a nice dose of protein.

  2. True But do we want this insulin spike at other times and more often?? I say NO. I see it kinda like a pot smoker. Say they take two hits off a joint to get high when they started. Now after getting high on a regular basis they have a tolerance and now have to bogart the whole Joint to themselves to get the same effect. LOL What I am trying to get at is by spiking our insulin more often at other less optimal times we may become resistant to an extent and make that POWERFULL response we want PWO not so POWERFULL. Insulin resistance.

  3. IT may be good during a long bout of cardio. Get all that blood flowing and such to the muscles and then start sipping the Surge. So it would be shuttled to the LBM and aid recovery. This may be usefull in times that recovery and gains are the main goal. Not fatloss. IMO Could be good??

  4. My understanding is even the Surge wont totally stop the Catabolic effects in PWO conditions. But it leans the table in our direction. Gets that anabolic/recovery happening faster. Not sure if that helps this question at all.

Well guess thats my take. I would say most times NO stick to fruits veggies, oats etc… Along with protein from food or Grow!.

Maybe during cardio. Could aid recovery. say get everything nice and warmed up. 5-10 minutes. Then start taking in the Surge and keep going for another 20-40 minutes shuttling the Goods for aided recovery.

Thats My opinion. Hopefully some of the Mo’ wise Docs and such will chime in here and Show us the Light.

By the way another great job at getting the Think Tank Thinking vroom.

Phill

Hey vroom, excellent question and one which I was thinking about recently.
During the summer months I work outside–house painter. So I’m in the sun, up and down ladders, legs tense, moving ladders (those 40 footers get heavy at the end of a day) etc, then I come home and have to find energy to do my other work and work out.
I’ve been leery of it because of the insulin spike–I was afraid of wiping myself out with that, but wasn’t sure.

Phill, Joe, you raise good points.

I’m no expert on insulin resistance, but I’m going to blather on about it anyway – bear with me.

To start, I’ll question whether insulin resistance is much of an issue for someone that is in fact controlling their carbohydrate intake, exercising regularly and is not obese.

Also, if we are on something like the Velocity Diet or the T-Dawg Diet, our bodies are not regularly infused with large loads of insulin. Isn’t it really the huge loads of carbohydrates consumed in a single setting that overload the insulin system and cause insensitivity?

I guess a pet theory of mine is that insulin resistance in healthy individuals, in large part, can be explained by the fact that a largely sedentary population has nowhere to push the carbohydrates. So, huge amounts of insulin are required to force the body to make space. Those of us that drain the storage areas, as nature intended, by getting actual exercise should be much more able to handle reasonable carbohydrate ingestion.

Also, based on the models proposed, wouldn’t the regular consumption of any meal with carbohydrates cause insulin resistance?

I may be totally wrong, but lets go with the idea that insulin resistance isn’t an issue to us because we are healthy, active and in control of our consumption and see where it may take us:

  1. We can generally control whether or not we have any space to store carbs by getting intense exercise or simply restricting carbs for a suitable period of time.

  2. We can control the size and duration of an insulin spike to ensure that it occurs at a time when there isn’t all that much dietary fat or other energy entering the bloodstream to cause new fat storage.

  3. Through cardio, if we wish, we can ensure that an influx of carbs is at least presented in large part to the muscles for uptake, as opposed to consuming this type of meal while in a rested state.

Point 1 above is managed by our diets. If we are on the T-Dawg or perhaps the V-Diet we know where we are at any point in time. Point 2 is controlled by the Surge serving size. We can pinpoint the carb ingestion and have a fair idea how much energy is entering our system from it and any previous meals. Point 3 is also obviously under our direct control though our jobs may somewhat get in the way.

So, if I fasted for a whole three or four hours after my previous small meal (big whoop), then went for a 15 minute walk and then chugged some Surge, what would be the effect? Would I present insulin and an appropriate nutrient profile to the muscles and cause an increase in anabolic activity? Would eating a regular small protein containing meal after this help continue the anabolic process?

Is this repeatable simply by waiting three or four hours so that the previous small meal is no longer entering the bloodstream?

Okay, that is a ton of questions based on a supposition. I realize that. To be honest though, if a strategy such as this could be worked into recovery periods between workouts, it would be worth considering.

Is there any research out there showing the effects of consumption for various types of exercise or for various states of or strategies for carbohydrate depletion?

I think it mainly depends on insulin resistance. If you’re resistant taking it in any other time than during/after a workout would most likely be better for your fat stores than your muscles. Insuline resistance is a completely defferent and very complex issue, but I think you should keep in mind that a myrid of factors come into play: genetics, diet, exercise (cardio and weight training which use different energy systems will affect the resistence differently), stress (cortisal levels) and supplements/drugs (ie caffine). Which is why I’m not sure that I like your fasting then 15 min walk suggestion–the rise in insulin will transport those carbs somewhere, but where?

Do you really think you need much carbs after a 3 hour fast and 15 min light cardio? Nevertheless, interesting issue and one which I have debated several times myself.

Tim,

Heh, well, I really don’t know, which is why I’m posting so many questions. I’m hoping someone will come along who does.

Anyway, what do you consider a lot of carbs? I know carbs are the boogeyman these days, but is 50g a lot of carbs? Heck, that’s only 200 kcal, which won’t last very long.

I think the key issues, with respect to elevated insulin, is the area under the curve, not the absolute height. Making sure the bloodstream doesn’t have excessive fats and that not much energy is inserted during the ingestion event might look after your concerns.

So, if one were bulking, would 200g of carbs in a day be an issue? Not usually. Why should they be considered a problem in my supposition? Perhaps because they are specifically designed for fast absorption. We are always asking our bodies to store carbohydrates, in fairly large quantities, but generally at a slower rate. Well, except for the general public, they consume amounts much greater and at a much more rapid pace than I am even proposing.

Your body can’t make fats out of nothing, no matter how high your insulin levels. Your muscles don’t burn only fats, no matter how sedentary you are. Theoretically, and perhaps only theoretically, there is a interesting possibility here under managed dietary circumstances.

I might have to do an experiment… :wink:

I’ve wondered about using a serving of Surge immediately upon waking, then going about your business, cleaning up or whatever and then having your normal breakfast sometime afterwards. Would this break the catabolic fast from sleeping? Would it help you to utilize the macros from the subsequent meal? Or what it turn you into a big bag of butter? I would suppose that such a regimen would only be useful when bulking, although if one were not training heavily and quite carb restricted then maybe that would help them retain LBM?

More questions I don’t have answers for!

I posted a similar question before.

David Barr responded…

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=506047

[quote]tall tom wrote:
I posted a similar question before.

David Barr responded…

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=506047[/quote]

so we had two dissimilar answers from two experts.
That’s not helpful!

Ah, thanks for the link. Looks like the answer was decidedly mixed… :wink:

Wow, sorry I’m late for the party! My PC crashed just before I took off for 2 days of RnR.

[quote]vroom wrote:1) Does it have the same anabolic effect whenever taken – even if you aren’t in a potentially catabolic state?
[/quote]

Surge will be anabolic and anticatabolic whenever you drink it -as long as you haven’t eaten within the past couple of hours. This is why it’s a great start to the day.

Again, this supports early morning Surge.
BTW-Do we ever want excess fats in the blood? :slight_smile: OT-The subjects I’m working on now have so much fat in their blood that their serum is opaque and white!

Exercise greatly changes the normal hormonal response. From personal experience, blood sugar remains normal throughout the exercise bout. This indicates that the insulin spike may be delayed or of a lower magnitude.

Great question, but we don’t know the answer to this one yet. To speculate, I believe that insulin would be intimately tied to enhancing the anabolic activity, regardless of the situation.

Hope this helps!
Cheers

When exactly are you thinking of having your drink? Pre workout would be great, and if you have access to carbs within half an hour of the Surge drink, during the day is good too.

Cheers

[quote]Joe Weider wrote:
Hey vroom, excellent question and one which I was thinking about recently.
During the summer months I work outside–house painter. So I’m in the sun, up and down ladders, legs tense, moving ladders (those 40 footers get heavy at the end of a day) etc, then I come home and have to find energy to do my other work and work out.
I’ve been leery of it because of the insulin spike–I was afraid of wiping myself out with that, but wasn’t sure.
[/quote]

Thanks, David!
I understand using it first thing in the morning, but what about using it at the end of a work day–if you’ve got a physical type job?
Or would you be better off just having regular food?
Or choc. milk?

Well, I’m going to try a bit of an experiment I think.

I’m going to use the regular full serving after my workout, but then I’ll take several single scoop servings spaced an hour or more apart after that.

Looking at it from the calories in and calories out point of view, there isn’t much available for storage…

I was thinking of doing it as soon as I got home from work…so that woud put it an hour or so before supper. Then an hour later or maybe 2, I lift, have more Surge, then some Low-Carb Grow! and go to bed. Thinking being that the Surge would help more with energy, since I’m pretty depleted at the end of a day.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
When exactly are you thinking of having your drink? Pre workout would be great, and if you have access to carbs within half an hour of the Surge drink, during the day is good too.

Cheers

Joe Weider wrote:
Hey vroom, excellent question and one which I was thinking about recently.
During the summer months I work outside–house painter. So I’m in the sun, up and down ladders, legs tense, moving ladders (those 40 footers get heavy at the end of a day) etc, then I come home and have to find energy to do my other work and work out.
I’ve been leery of it because of the insulin spike–I was afraid of wiping myself out with that, but wasn’t sure.

[/quote]