T Nation

Surge and Insulin


#1

Hi Bill

I train 4x a week, always used insulin post workout, take SURGE pre, intra and post workout, then post workout insulin along with the shake.
I wonder how many weeks can I use insulin before it begins to lose effect? and how long should I stay without using it?

since I take a shake pre and intra workout that stimulate the release of insulin, post workout insulin injection would be better or pre workout would be better?
thanks


#2

I’m unable to say how fast insulin sensitivity will decrease even if knowing the dose, as I haven’t tracked change in glucose tolerance or fasting glucose in myself or asked any to do it or seen any results. But broadly speaking, substantial use of insulin always has a noticeable effect on insulin sensitivity after a time such as 8 weeks.

A modest dose of insulin though that’s appropriate to the carb intake, such as 4 IU, I think will have much less adverse effect. I have done that many times without noticing any change in fasting glucose, or apparent change judging from how I seem to respond, but not backed up by oral glucose tolerance test.

If dosing is moderate like that, then I don’t think any particular cycling protocols are necessary. If using more than that, I’d suggest at least equal time off as on, but that’s just a general guideline.

Having carbs pre and post (and preferably during) when I use insulin, I do it preworkout from the standpoint of Humulin R having relatively long action, so a preworkout injection covers both pre and post, while post doesn’t do that.


#3

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I’m unable to say how fast insulin sensitivity will decrease even if knowing the dose, as I haven’t tracked change in glucose tolerance or fasting glucose in myself or asked any to do it or seen any results. But broadly speaking, substantial use of insulin always has a noticeable effect on insulin sensitivity after a time such as 8 weeks.

A modest dose of insulin though that’s appropriate to the carb intake, such as 4 IU, I think will have much less adverse effect. I have done that many times without noticing any change in fasting glucose, or apparent change judging from how I seem to respond, but not backed up by oral glucose tolerance test.

If dosing is moderate like that, then I don’t think any particular cycling protocols are necessary. If using more than that, I’d suggest at least equal time off as on, but that’s just a general guideline.

Having carbs pre and post (and preferably during) when I use insulin, I do it preworkout from the standpoint of Humulin R having relatively long action, so a preworkout injection covers both pre and post, while post doesn’t do that.
[/quote]

Bill

How long should off before use insulin again after 8 weeks on?( i use only 4x week)

so i will use humulin r pre workout…


#4

How many IU do you use at a time?


#5

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
How many IU do you use at a time?[/quote]

i was using 10 iu humalog post workout but now i will use 10 iu humulin r pre workout…why is better right?

so should i use 100gr carbs on workout?


#6

About 100 g carbs is generally an excellent amount when training hard.


#7

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
About 100 g carbs is generally an excellent amount when training hard.[/quote]

ok Bill but how long time on and off insulin?i always used 8weeks 4x per week


#8

There’s no definite rule on that. With 10 IU at a time, I’d expect some adverse effect on insulin sensitivity to build up with 8 weeks of use. Allowing equal time off would be reasonably conservative, as opinion.


#9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There’s no definite rule on that. With 10 IU at a time, I’d expect some adverse effect on insulin sensitivity to build up with 8 weeks of use. Allowing equal time off would be reasonably conservative, as opinion.[/quote]

What do you think of using metoformin to increase sensitivity and assist in recovery?

what would be the minimum effective dose?


#10

In one way yes; in another way, don’t know.

The yes is that it post-cycle, as well as other times, it provides its usual benefit of increasing insulin sensitivity post-insulin cycle.

But as to whether besides adding an improvement (which it would also add relative to the normal state) it speeds the natural recovery of insulin sensitivity, I have absolutely no knowledge.

What I mean by that is this. Let’s talk about rate of improvement as say X% per month, though it wouldn’t have to be a fixed value. Metformin also just adds some amount. So does metformin, post insulin cycle, both add that amount and increase the rate X? That’s what I’m saying I don’t know. An analogy could be HCG, in cases where testicular function is good, say HCG was used in the last 4 weeks. HCG in PCT would provide its usual addition, but would not improve the rate X. I’m not saying metformin would work against, as HCG does, as I doubt it would work against, I just don’t know if it would speed rate.

It can be worth taking. It’s possible (found in a study) that testosterone level can be reduced which could be an issue for natural use but not of concern on a steroid cycle. However in practice it’s worked very well for naturals so I’m not convinced on the testosterone question.

Usually 500 mg at a time with carb meals or some of them, but not more than usually 1500 or 2000 mg/day. Starting with lower dose such as 250 mg to assess tolerance is best.